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Post by Don Ricardo on Nov 30, 2023 20:05:51 GMT 10
Evening all, I seem to be on a Belvue caravan track after my posts yesterday. Here are photos of two Belvue vans that I forgot I had.
The first set are of a Belvue from around 1957 or 1958 owned by Peter Axford and posted on the Vintage Classic and Retro Caravans Australia Facebook page in August 2019. The van is similar to Wigley's Belvue shown a little higher up this thread, but note that the side window frames have the four rounded corners and broader metal frame, which indicate that it is an earlier model than Wigley's. The outside of the van has been 'redecorated' but shows the style of the side windows referred to above: However, the inside of the van is original and looks to have been in good condition:
The second set of photos is of a Belvue offered for sale on the Vintage caravan renovation and sales, Australia Facebook page by Peter Sprunt in August 2022: This van looks to be quite similar to the caravan shown in the Belvue advert from the 1956 Winser Caravan Manual in the post that begins this thread. That suggests that it may be from around 1955 or 1956. Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Nov 29, 2023 16:56:42 GMT 10
Hi all, Following are the Belvue adverts from the late 50's Winser Caravan Manuals over a three year period, which show the changes in style during that time. 1957:(Source: K Winser, Australian Caravan and Touring Manual for 1957, Book 9, page 91)
Note that this 1957 advert seems to show two different models. The one on the left has a two-pane front window that is not full width, while the one on the right has a single-pane, almost full-width front window. The van on the left is also a a slightly different shape with the front and the rear of the van sloping inwards towards the centre of the caravan. The van on the left is probably an earlier model than the one on the right.
1958:(Source: K Winser, Australian Caravan and Touring Manual, Book 10, 1958, page 94)
The Belvue van on the right is most likely the same model (or even the same caravan) as the one shown in the advertising brochure shown in the post dated 22 February 2014 above.
1959:(Source: K Winser, Caravan & Touring Manual, Book 11, 1959, page 101) The entry for 1959 shows the same triangular decoration on the sides as the van shown in the post dated 27 February 2016, and Wigley's Belvue shown in the posts immediately above. Note however that this van has the side window frames with the four rounded corners and broad aspect, unlike Wigley's van which has later style window frames.
Note also that the caravan in this entry has a bay window which was an option on a number of Victorian manufacturers' vans in the late 50's.
Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Nov 29, 2023 16:09:15 GMT 10
Hi Wigley, Welcome to the Forum. I was pleased to hear by PM that you had purchased the Belvue sold by Pickles and that you are wanting to restore it and look after it. From the photos posted by Pickles, it looks to be in reasonable restorable condition, although photos can sometimes hide a bit. Regarding the age of your van, it's hard to be definitive at this stage, except to say that it seems likely to have been built somewhere between 1958 and 1962, and probably towards the end of that age bracket. That's a bit of a guess, but I'll tell you why I say that... Your van has the distinctive triangular, waist high decoration on the sides, the same as the caravan shown higher up this thread. Belvue caravans with that particular decoration first appeared in the 1959 Caravan Manual publication produced by Keith Winser, which we believe would have been printed in late 1958 (see following post). The photos of Belvues in earlier Winser Caravan Manuals were decorated differently, or had quite different features. If you look at the extracts on Belvue I've posted in the post which follows you will see the differences. Going one step further, the van with the triangular decoration like yours in the 1959 Winser and the photos of a similar van higher up this thread also have one important difference to yours, and that is the shape of the windows. If you look at the van higher up this thread, you'll see that its side window frames have four rounded corners and the window frames are quite broad. In contrast the window frames on your van only have rounded corners on the bottom edges, and much narrower frames. We know that the window frames with four rounded corners and the broader aspect were used earlier by caravan manufacturers than the frames like yours, so that means that your van was produced later than the caravan higher up this thread, which is why I am suggesting that your van was produced later in the 1958 to 1962 period. The previous owner of the van higher up this thread believed that the van was built in 1961, but I don't know if he had any evidence for that (I know the person concerned). I think it is likely to have been a guess, based on what he could find out at the time. I hope that's some help? I'll also send you a PM (Personal Message) with some other information. In the meantime, I'll post a few more photos of your van from the Pickles auction site so that others can see what we have been discussing. Hope that's OK with you? Others possibly will be able to provide additional information. I'll also post some other info about Belvue. Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Nov 28, 2023 16:02:15 GMT 10
P.A.W. Caravan Co - another instalment in the C.&.W. Caravan Industries, and Aristocrat/Aristavan caravan storyHi all, My earlier searches for information about C&W caravans, and the C&W Aristocrat and Aristavan caravans produced by (the Western Australian company) Caravan Industries have come up with frustratingly little information, as reflected in the posts above. Similarly, my previous searches for John Woodhead, who we've been told is the 'W' in 'C&W' had turned up nothing. So...I did a search on Trove for C&W's earliest known address which was 'Cnr Scarborough Beach Road & Hutton Street, Osborne Park' in Perth, and lo and behold came up with the following advert for the P.A.W. Caravan Co., published in the Beverly Times on Thursday, 9 February 1956 (page 8): Obligingly, the advert includes a photo of a P.A.W. caravan which is always helpful! The van in question is a different shape to the C&W caravans we've seen, so the question is whether there is any evidence that P.A.W was linked to C&W? We don't have any direct evidence but: - P.A.W. was operating from the same location that we know C&W was operating from at a later point ('later' based on the more modern features and construction of the C&W caravans compared to the P.A.W. van).
- The proprietor of 'P.A.W. Caravan Co.' made a quite distinctive use of full stops (.) in the company name. The same style was also followed by the proprietor of C&W. In fact if you look carefully at the C&W company name it is actually printed on the sticker on their vans as 'C.&.W. Industries Pty. Ltd.' Note the full stops even after '&' in the name. I think this indicates that it was very likely the same person behind both company names. (I have referred to the last company name in my posts as 'C&W' just because it's easier to type, but it's not the way it was written by the company itself.)
- We have been told that the 'W' in 'C.&.W.' referred to Woodhead, and it seems possible - based on the previous points - that the 'W' in 'P.A.W.' also refers to Woodhead. In that case the 'P.A.' may refer to Woodhead's initials, and we are looking for a 'P.A. Woodhead' not a 'John Woodhead', or perhaps 'P.A.' was a father or brother to John?
There is a bit of conjecture in the above, but I thought there was a pretty good chance it is correct. So I searched further...
As it happens, P.A.W. Caravan Co. advertised in the Perth press rather more frequently that C.&.W. Industries ever did (which was never in the latter's case). The first advert I can find for P.A.W. was printed in the West Australian on Friday, 5 September 1952 (page 18);
Apart from telling us that the caravans were available direct from the factory, and were not only beautiful but modern and spacious as well, the advert also reveals that in 1952 the company was located at 65 Federation Street, Mt Hawthorn in Perth. As it happens, the 65 Federation Street is a pretty significant piece of information, and since discovering the above P.A.W. adverts, I have undertaken some research on that address, aided by the fact that back in the early 50's, newspapers often printed the addresses and full names of the people they wrote about. (It would never happen now.) What we are able to discover from a newspaper search via Trove and a search of electoral roles via Ancestry.com is that around 1952, 65 Federation Street, Mt Hawthorn was the residence of the Woodhead family. I won't post all the snippets of information I've collected about the Woodhead family unless anyone is particularly interested in the evidence, but in 1951/52 the Woodhead family consisted of father John Edward (Jack), mother Ruby, twin sons Peter Ashton and William Treloar (Bill), born in 1928, and younger son John Mortimer. Jack's profession was chiropodist, and Bill is later also listed as a chiropodist. Jack died in early 1952, so it seems as if he (and probably Bill) are out of the frame for the caravan construction business. In addition, it seems as if it was probably Peter Ashton Woodhead (P.A.W.) after whom the business was named.
Peter Woodhead had a real knack for getting himself mentioned in the newspapers in the late 40's and early 50's. There was the usual engagement notice in January 1952 and a photo of his wedding day later in that year. However, well before all that he managed to score a front page appearance in the Perth Daily News on Wednesday, 2 April 1947 (page 1) with this item:
The article refers to Peter as a technical school student (which suggests he may have been pursuing a trade at that point), and electoral roll records then listed him as a 'salesman' living in Mt Hawthorn in 1949 to 1958, as a 'business proprietor' living in Osborne Park in 1958 and 1963, as a salesman living in Wembley in 1968 and 1972, and finally as a company director living in Wembley in 1977. Peter died in October 1999. But it does seem that Peter may have been a bit of a tearaway. Apart from his run in with the garfish when he was 18, he was cited in various Perth and regional newspapers on no less than five occasions between 1952 and 1954 for having been fined for speeding. This extract from the South Western Advertiser published on Thursday, 22 January 1953 (page 5) records that Peter Woodhead was caught driving his Hudson past a school 'with no regard for the safety of school children' at 50 mph in a 25 mph zone:
And then there's this, printed in the West Australian on Friday, 21 November 1952 (page11):
Caught and fined £10 for towing an unregistered, uninsured trailer with no red flag on the long load of timber. Was the timber for the construction of one of the P.A.W. caravans? Wouldn't it be nice to know? Brother John Mortimer Woodhead seems to have lived a less adventurous life, or at least didn't catch the eye of the journalists (or the traffic police!). There is no information about him recorded in the Perth newspapers, apart from an engagement notice in 1951. However, the electoral rolls list him as a 'coachbuilder' living in Scarborough in 1954 and Doubleview in 1958, as a 'welder' living in Mt Hawthorn in 1963, and as a 'manager' living in Nollomara in 1968, 1972 and 1977. The occupations of coachbuilder and welder fit in well with the caravan business, and the occupation of manager may be linked in the change of the business from 'C.&.W. Industries Pty. Ltd.' to 'Caravan Industries Pty. Ltd.' in the early to mid 60's as the business grew. Returning to the caravan adverts, what more do they tell us about P.A.W. caravans? The following advert appeared in the West Australian on Friday, 12 September 1952 (page 22): (Source: National Library of Australia nla.gov.au/nla.news-article49052248 ) The advert describes 14 ft or 15 ft caravans with underslung chassis, large casement windows, fly-wire, curtains, wardrobes, drawers, dressing table, 4-berths and tapestry covered cushions. A number of similar adverts appeared in the WA press in 1952, followed by a hiatus in advertising through 1953 (or perhaps the newspapers from that year aren't archived on Trove). The first advert for P.A.W. in 1954 was published in the West Australian on Tuesday, 9 March 1954 (page 21):
It tells us that the caravans boasted masonite cupboards and were luxuriously furnished. But it also tells us that at some point between the end of 1952 and March 1954, the P.A.W. Caravan Co. had moved to a new location at Scarborough Beach Road, Osborne Park, which is the location where C.&.W. Industries and Caravan Industries were also later to be found (although we don't know whether the companies remained in the same location on Scarborough Road throughout their existence).
An advert appearing in the West Australian a few days later on Saturday, 13 March 1954, reveals that the caravans were 'the fleet owners choice' and that caravan parts such as axles, wheels and 'tow knuckles' were also available from P.A.W.:
P.A.W. adverts often repeated that their caravans were the fleet owner's choice, but we don't know if that refers to caravan hire companies, firms requiring accommodation for remote locations, or government instrumentalities. The theme was reprised in P.A.W.'s last advert for 1954 in the West Australian of Saturday, 18 December 1954 (page 35). But not only that, P.A.W. offered the 'largest and finest range of caravans in WA. Perhaps this was Peter Woodhead's salesman pitch coming to the fore? The business seems to have thrived. On Thursday, 10 November 1955, P.A.W. advertised in the Perth Daily News (page 29) for a Junior Office Girl. Applications were to be lodged with the firms Accountant, so it appears that at that point the business just didn't consist of two brothers working together:
P.A.W. Caravan Co. was still listed in the 1962 Winser's Caravan Manual's Trade Directory, and C.&.W. Industries Pty Ltd also was listed for the first time that year. That suggests that the change of P.A.W to C.&.W. possibly happened about that time, but Winser was notoriously slow in updating some aspects of the Caravan Manual, so I don't think too much weight should be attached to the entries in the 1962 edition. Indeed the features of the C.&.W. caravan recently rescued by Aza (see post higher up this thread) suggest that the change from P.A.W to C.&.W. occurred sometime in the late 50's, not the early 60's.
The evidence we now have regarding the involvement of the Woodhead family, the business location in Scarborough Beach Road, Osborne Park, and the continued use of the 'C&W' logo and name from the late 50's on, seems to indicate that there was a direct and evolutionary connection from P.A.W. Caravan Co. to C.&.W. Industries Pty. Ltd, and then to Caravan Industries Pty. Ltd. and the Caravanland sales centre. Caravanland was a division of Caravan Industries, and there is still a Caravanland in Perth, which operates as a Jayco retailer. It would be fascinating to know if the modern Caravanland traces its roots back to Peter and John Woodhead.
How long Peter Woodhead stayed with the caravan business, or even what his original level of involvement was, we don't know at this point. Perhaps he was the salesman and ideas man for P.A.W. caravans and John, the younger brother, the person actually building the caravans. Perhaps Peter exited the business when it changed its name from P.A.W. Caravan Co. to C.&.W. Industries? Whatever the story, it was brother John Woodhead who people remember from the 60's, as reflected in some of the posts higher up this thread. Any further information about the Woodheads, their caravan building business, and the elusive 'Mr C' from the 'C.&.W. Industries' name is very welcome. Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Nov 25, 2023 12:44:55 GMT 10
It’s not the destination, but the journey, Absolutely!
What a trip you had, with some unplanned extras thrown in just to make it more memorable. Thanks for posting the photos Tooleyau. So good to see.
Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Nov 24, 2023 12:13:30 GMT 10
Hi Glen66,
Welcome to the Forum.
I've checked Forum member Twocutekelpies' Viscount register, and a Duralvan with the serial number of 'A5039' would have been built in 1968. I presume your van has white acrylic coated cladding with 'lightning flashes' on the side? If not let me know.
I can't help you with the paint colour for the flashes, but someone else may be able to.
Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Nov 24, 2023 12:06:30 GMT 10
Hi Georgie, I see that Bobcat1 posted about his Hilandale back in 2009 and I don't think we've heard from him since, so you probably won't get a reply from him. However, I have replied to your other post about your Hilandale. To find my reply just click on this link with your mouse, and you'll be taken there. Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Nov 24, 2023 12:02:48 GMT 10
Hi Georgie, Welcome to the Forum and thanks for telling us about your Hilandale caravan. We can almost certainly help you with some information about the van, and I'll try and answer some of your questions here as well. Regarding identifying your van, it will help if you can show us some photos of it. There is information on how to post photos if you click on this link. The easiest way to post photos is to use the 'Add Attachment' button at the top right hand corner of the 'Create Post' window, and that's the instructions I've pointed you to. But I notice that you are posting from your mobile, so please note that there is an extra step you need to take to make the 'Add Attachment' button appear on your mobile screen. If that all looks a bit confusing, you are welcome to email me some photos of your van at caravanhistory@gmail.com and I'll be glad to post the photos for you so that you can get some help identifying your van. In the meantime there is some information about Hilandale caravans in the 'Down History Lane' section of the Forum that you may find interesting. Just click on this link. Now to answer some of your questions: Where to post a question? You've posted your post in the 'Caravanning Publications...Other' section, which is ok. But the best place to ask a general question, etc, is in the 'General Interest Posts - General...2008 Onwards' section. What is a post and what is a thread? A post is an individual contribution made by a Forum member. So this reply to you is a 'post'. A thread is a topic which different people add posts about. So you have started a thread called 'Please identify my Van' with your post starting "Hi everyone...", and I am now adding a post to the thread with this reply. You mentioned that your van does not have a VIN number, and that's because VIN's for caravans were only introduced in 1989, so no caravans built before that have a VIN unless one has been issued for it to be re-registered in 1989 or later. Regarding 'Georgie' on the front and back, I think that is probably a name given to your van by a previous owner. It most likely comes from the fact that Hilandale vans were built by George's Caravans. Hope that helps a bit, and we'll look forward to hearing more about your Hilandale and seeing some photos of it so we can help you with an approximate build date, etc. Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Nov 20, 2023 21:18:19 GMT 10
Evening all, One of the "laws" of vintage caravan history is that when one discovery is made about a little known caravan manufacturer, several other discoveries follow soon after. In this case, LIL 062 recently showed us photos of his C&W caravan (see higher up this thread), and this was followed only a few days later by the discovery and rescue of this earlier model C&W caravan by Forum member Aza: Cushions from inside the van:
A few observations about the van: - This is the first C&W caravan we have seen clad in bondwood. The cladding and the shape suggests a late 40's or 50's build date, but the van has aluminium framed side windows which indicate that it may be more likely from the late 50's.
- The van is a similar shape to the aluminium clad C&W vans shown to us by Aza and LIL 062 higher up this thread - note the front and rear profiles, with the 'lean forward' front stance.
- As Aza commented to me in a discussion about this van, it is a big caravan for a single axle!
- The shape of the external wheel arch is quite distinctive, and the same design can be seen on the vans shown to us by Aza and LIL 062. This may assist us in identifying other C&W caravans.
- The walls of the van are single skin, ie unlined, which seems unusual for what appears to be a fairly well kitted out caravan.
Thanks to Aza for his willingness to share the photos of one of his latest finds. The photos were originally displayed on his Just Retro Caravans Facebook page. Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Nov 20, 2023 20:37:09 GMT 10
Hi all, In the post above we saw that in 1967, Caravan Industries Pty Ltd contracted to supply some caravans for the Postmaster-General's Department. However, this was not the first time the company - or more accurately its predecessor company, C&W Caravans Pty Ltd - had supplied caravans for government use. The following extract from the Commonwealth of Australia Gazette No 38, page 1851, published on Thursday, 11 May 1961, tells us that 6 years earlier C&W supplied a 'three-berth aluminium sheathed caravan' to the Department of Civil Aviation at a cost of £474/2/-: I am thinking this aluminium clad caravan may have been similar to the C&W caravans shown in the photos from Aza and LIL 062 higher up on this thread. LIL 062 has dated his van as being built in 1962 and appears to be three-berth, and the Civil Aviation van is from around the same time period. Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Nov 18, 2023 18:02:07 GMT 10
Photos of Earl's camper received by email:
Hi Earl, Welcome to the Forum and thanks for the photos of your camper, or caravan as we would call it in Australia. I am judging from the placement of the door of your camper on the left side of the camper, and the style of windows, that you are located in North America (USA or Canada)? While we are always very pleased to hear from vintage caravanners from around the world on the Forum, the Forum's focus - and our knowledge base - is Australian vintage caravans, so unfortunately I don't think we will be able to assist you very much with dating your van. As I think you've discovered, there was a Franklin caravan manufacturing company operating in Australia in the past. Commencing as a back yard producer in the late 1940's, Franklin was amongst the top three or four caravan manufacturers in Australia in the 1960's and 1970's, based on the number of caravans produced during that period. However, there was no corporate or legal connection that we are aware of between the Australian Franklin company and the business producing Franklin caravans in the US. In Australia, the name 'Franklin' was adopted by the company's founder from the name of his childhood home which was 'Franklin'. Having said that, the Australian Franklin company did for a short while produce a caravan shaped like your camper with a 'bed over the drawbar' design which is described as the 'split-level Franklin "Arrow"' in the photo below, but which is often referred to as a Franklin Penthouse:
(Source: K Winser, Caravan Manual 71 and Tourist Park Guide, 23rd edition, 1971, page 185) The Franklin Arrow was a regular, single-level caravan, and the Penthouse looks like a regular Arrow from the 'hump' backwards. The Franklin Penthouse model was introduced in 1970 for the 1970/71 season.
You can see that the concept was the same as your Franklin, and it would not surprise me if the Australian design was based on the US concept. Although Australian caravan designs have been by and large unique to Australia, Australian manufacturers have sometimes drawn on overseas styling cues or ideas. If this is the case with our Franklin Penthouse, that might suggest that the US 'bed over the drawbar' concept was developed earlier than our 1970 caravan, even if your van is not as old as that. Alternatively, if the US Franklin company did get the idea of your van from the Australian company then that would suggest that your van was later than 1970.
I'm afraid that's not much help to you in dating your van. Certainly I don't know how to interpret the '83' chassis number. However, I'm very happy to continue the conversation.
Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Nov 11, 2023 18:39:25 GMT 10
Hi Colinsandyreo, Welcome to the Forum and thanks for telling us about your Gypsy 10. I'm glad to see that you worked out how to post on the Forum and how to post photos. One of our long standing Forum members, Gypsy10, is in the process of selling his Gypsy 10. It might be worth contacting him to see if he has any spare bits and pieces. If you haven't seen it, his thread can be found by clicking here. Good luck with your restoration and search for components. Please let us know how you are progressing with your project as you go. Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Nov 11, 2023 17:30:19 GMT 10
Hi everyone. I've been contemplating the idea of refurbishing an old caravan to make it look like a modern one. I'm curious about the feasibility of this endeavor and the potential features that could bring it in line with modern caravans. Good afternoon Soahib, I've read your two posts and am not quite sure where you're coming from. Are you considering buying an old van (your first post) and thinking that the car detailer may be able to help you modernise the van (your second post)? Or do you own the car detailing business and seeking to attract some customers? Either way, this Forum is probably not the best place for you to be seeking advice and/or customers. There are, to be sure, some Forum members who have added some modern comforts and features to their Vintage (pre-1970) caravans, but essentially the Forum is dedicated to the preservation and restoration of Vintage caravans, including maintaining their original features, not modernising them. Regarding the car detailing business, while they may be able to assist with polishing the external cladding of some of the aluminium clad caravans, and cleaning an old van internally, they probably won't have the carpentry and wood working skills, etc, required to restore or even modernise an older van. You have possibly posted on this thread about 'Modern Caravans Perth' thinking it was about modernising older caravans? In fact Modern Caravans was actually a caravan manufacturer that built vans branded with the name Modern from the 50's through to the 70's. A bit confusing I know, but just think of Modern as a brand name like, say, Jayco, etc. If you do want to buy an old van to modernise there are quite a few pages on Facebook telling the stories of people who have modernised their vans. However, there are also lots of people on Facebook with caravans that have been totally gutted inside, and they are now trying to sell the caravan as a shell. The number of people giving up on their projects tells you that rebuilding or completely modernising a caravan is actually much harder than it looks at first, so that's something to bear in mind. As a bunch of people who are interested in the history, preservation and restoration of Vintage caravans, we'd certainly like to encourage you down that route, although we understand that may not be your goal. Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Nov 11, 2023 16:57:21 GMT 10
Re mike and Lyns earlier comment “all booked and paid”…are they now taking payment as when I tried to pay a while back the caravan park did not want to take any payments yet? Jenno Hi Jennison, I think the caravan park for the Nationals got a bit overwhelmed at the beginning and possibly gave different advice to different people. I've certainly paid a deposit for my booking, and I think most others have, although I did hear of a few people who got the same initial advice as you. I suggest you give the park a ring again and ask them if you can pay a deposit to secure your booking. Let us know how you get on. It's important you're there. After all the 2024 Nationals are in part a celebration of Jennison's 90th anniversary! Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Nov 6, 2023 21:35:12 GMT 10
Hi all, For some photos of Geoff Barnes' 10 ft Don he has for sale (see post immediately above on this thread), click here. Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Nov 6, 2023 21:33:09 GMT 10
Hi all, Yesterday Geoff Barnes posted on another thread: "Because Hellina's dementia has got significantly worse we are selling our DON caravan in Adelaide.
"It's a 10 ft no395."It's very sad to hear about Geoff's wife's condition worsening and we can only wish them strength for each day ahead. They both attended the 2021 Vintage Caravan Nationals in Victor Harbor. For anyone interested in their little Don, here are a few pics taken at Victor Harbor: Geoff isn't a Forum member so you can't contact him by PM, but if you're interested in the van, post here and I'll try and connect you through the Vintage and Classic Caravan Group of SA. Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Nov 2, 2023 21:12:57 GMT 10
Hi Roehm,
The dinette seats in our van are made with a 'ledge' on the table side edge of the seat base. The table then just drops down between the two seats and sits on the ledge either side. The leg of the table folds inwards and clips on to a catch on the underside of the table. A pretty simple idea and wouldn't be hard to make I don't think.
I'm not very good at explaining something a bit technical like that, but I can show you some pics if that helps. I think it's basically the same idea as Nickd's table.
Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Nov 2, 2023 15:45:25 GMT 10
Hi Tonys,
Welcome to the forum and thanks for showing us your van.
The shape and type of windows suggest your van is late 50's. The way the floorline is shaped with the little step up towards either end rings a bell, but I'll need to do a bit of digging and see if I can come up with something for you.
Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Oct 29, 2023 21:22:22 GMT 10
Hi all, As is the case with many of the Western Australian caravan manufacturers from the Vintage era, we are quite a way from fully understanding the history of Aristocrat and Aristavan caravans. From what we've unearthed so far, these vans were initially built by C&W Industries Pty Ltd and sold branded as 'C&W' caravans. We have been told (see posts higher up this thread) that 'W' in 'C&W' refers to John Woodhead and that the 'C' may refer to someone named Cummings or Cooper. At some point C&W Industries seemed to have been transformed into (or taken over by) Caravan Industries Pty Ltd. This change seems to have occurred after 1962, because we have photos on this thread of two similar aluminium clad caravans, one of which has an electricity inspection certificate dated October 1962, and the other of which is simply branded 'Manufactured by C&W Industries Pty Ltd'. At some stage - apparently after the change to Caravan Industries Pty Ltd - the brand names Aristocrat and Aristavan were adopted, but the vans were still branded as 'C&W Aristocrat' and 'C&W Aristavan' as shown in the logos on the vans higher up this thread. Unfortunately there is next to no information that I have been able to find using the National Library's Trove archive about John Woodhead, C&W Industries, Caravan Industries, or Aristocrat and Aristavan caravans. The only document I can find is the following extract from the Commonwealth of Australia Gazette, No 60, page 3677 published on Thursday, 6 July 1967: (Source: National Library of Australia nla.gov.au/nla.news-article241040870 ) This extract tells us that 'Caravan Industries Pty Ltd, WA' had been contracted by the Postmaster-General's Department to supply caravans at a cost of $34,164. Other suppliers at the same time included Pathfinder, Franklin and President. The reference to 'Hygeia Dissolvenator', so Trove has informed me, is to a 'self contained sanitation system' - so not a caravan, but possibly useful for caravanners, or not, depending on the size of the unit. This extract confirms that C&W/Caravan Industries was still operating in 1967, which we already know because they were advertising in the Winser Caravan Manuals in that year. It should be noted that the addition of 'WA' in the above listing of 'Caravan Industries Pty Ltd, WA' is important because the company manufacturing Chesney caravans in Queensland at the same time was also 'Caravan Industries Pty Ltd'. Just to add to the possible confusion, the manufacturer of Brighton caravans in New South Wales in the 1950's and 60's was another 'Caravan Industries Pty Ltd'. There may possibly have been a legal or business connection between the companies producing Chesney and Brighton caravans (operating in adjoining states at a time when caravan company amalgamations were occurring), but it seems unlikely that there was a connection between those two and the Western Australian manufacturer of C&W caravans. Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Oct 29, 2023 20:35:40 GMT 10
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Post by Don Ricardo on Oct 25, 2023 20:11:15 GMT 10
Article on a restored late 50's Skyline Junior published in the Melbourne Age and the Sydney Morning Herald weekend supplement on Saturday, 11 February 2012:The article also quotes Geoff Tangey (Firefighter) who up until his death was a member of the admin team for the Vintage Caravans Forum, and the lead organiser for several Vintage Caravan Nationals events. Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Oct 24, 2023 21:21:34 GMT 10
Hi Tansca, It is interesting to compare your van to the Skyline you've included in your post. They are very similar in shape and style and it's very possible that they came out of the same factory, but if so I am almost certain that they were built in the Franklin factory. The reason I say that is that we know that around about 1959, Skyline began to sell Skyline branded caravans that were actually sourced from other manufacturers, including Franklin. In some cases it appears that Skyline purchased the partially completed caravans from Franklin and then finished them off because some of the fittings in the Skyline versions differ from the Franklin versions. We have seen quite a few examples of Franklin built Skylines on the Forum, and apart from the fact that they are almost identical to the Franklin models, they have Franklin serial numbers on the drawbars. (By that I mean that the serial number follows the Franklin format.) Another example of a Skyline Junior like 'Betsy' in the article can be seen here. However, one difference between this Skyline and the Franklins is the shape of the external wheel arch. If you look at the wheel arch on the Skyline Junior I've referred you to, you'll see that it's sort of an even, upside down 'U' shape, and it's the same on 'Betsy' in the article. On your van however, the wheel arch rises upwards towards the front, and that shape was characteristic of Franklins for a number of years. There are a couple of small Franklins that look the same as yours, and have the same wheel arch (although one has spats) here and here. (Don't worry that the last one is labeled as a 'Korong' - that was a dealer's name.) So in summary, because of the shape of the wheel arch and the fact that your van has a Franklin format serial number, I am quite confident that your van is a Franklin.
Just by the by Franklin supplied caravans not only to Skyline but several other manufacturers/dealers including Panorama, Hawthorn, Phoenix, Pathmaster, Oasis and Owen Bailey who each branded the vans as their own.
Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Oct 23, 2023 17:26:13 GMT 10
G'day Smiles,
I haven't answered because our Don now has 14" HQ wheels and light truck tyres - so not authentic...but, shhhh, don't tell anyone...
Light truck tyres work well on a caravan and provide good stability, but you may not want to use them.
I wonder what Surf Tragic puts on his Dons? Maybe he'll see these posts and tell us?
Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Oct 23, 2023 12:11:50 GMT 10
Hi Tansca, Thanks for posting the photo of the serial number on your van. I read it as '799' because Franklin only started using a letter as a prefix to their serial numbers in 1974, and if the serial number on yours was 'V99' that would make it a 1974 model (because V meant 1974 in their system), which it clearly isn't because of the design and cladding. From 1960/61 to 1964, Franklin used a letter after the numbers, and the letter indicated the year. So, for example, 799E would mean a van was built in 1964 (because E meant 1964). There isn't a letter after your numbers so that means your van was built before that numbering system was introduced, and that in turn means your van was built prior to 1960. And since Franklin only started marketing their caravans under their own name in 1956, the indication is that your van was built between 1956 and 1959. The earlier Franklins looked different to yours, so I personally would guess your van was built in 1959. You might like to look at this thread which explains about Franklin serial numbers and shows some examples of fairly early Franklins, some of which are very similar to yours, although a bit larger. You might also find this thread about the history of Franklin interesting. Hope that helps and isn't too confusing! At least we've been able to narrow the build date of your caravan down. Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Oct 22, 2023 13:55:50 GMT 10
Hi all, A couple of interesting items about Millard caravans published in 1968. The first is an article reporting that the 16 ft Millard Princess model could now be purchased with an electric toilet installed, published in the Sydney Sun-Herald on Sunday, 5 May 1968 (page 70). Interesting that the toilets were the same as those to be found in Boeing 707 airliners: The article was accompanied by the following advert on the same page of the newspaper: Then on Sunday, 22 June 1968 the Sun-Herald (page 105) printed a review of the 1968 Millard Capri: This article was accompanied by the following advert on the same page of the newspaper setting out some of the Millard range: Note that while the Princess model with the toilet was clad in two-tone, acrylic coated aluminium, the Capri model was still clad in unpainted aluminium, apart from the flashes on the side. This seems to suggest that the Capri was finished at a lower level than the Princess.
All newspaper items were sourced from www.newspapers.comDon Ricardo
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