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Post by Don Ricardo on Dec 16, 2020 12:03:32 GMT 10
BLUEBIRD CARAVANS [Belmore, NSW]Hired and/or sold by Bluebird Caravans, 4 Robert Street, Belmore
and 780 Canterbury Road, Belmore NSW
Over the years there have been at least three manufacturers or dealers who have sold caravans or operated under the 'Bluebird' brandname. These include caravan manufacturers located in: - Burwood, Victoria - click here
- Belmore, New South Wales - this thread
- Elsternwick, Victoria - click here
It seems unlikely that there were any links between these manufacturers/dealers. If anyone has information which shows a connection between these three companies, we will combine the threads.
The earliest reference we have to the Bluebird Caravan company operating in Belmore, NSW, is the following advert for caravans for hire published in the Sydney Morning Herald [SMH] on Saturday, 20 November 1954 (page 28): (Source: newspapers.com ) Similar adverts continued to be placed by Bluebird Caravans in the SMH right through to the end of 1956. There is no indication at this stage that the caravans for hire were branded as Bluebird vans. On Saturday, 2 February 1957 the following advert was printed in the SMH (page 28): (Source: newspapers.com ) This tells us that some of the vans - presumably the 2-berth models mentioned in the previous adverts were only 5 cwt and suitable for towing by 10 hp vehicles. A similar advert placed in the SMH on Saturday, 12 July 1958 (page 38), expands on the 'all sizes' in the advert immediately above by revealing that there were 'six sizes' for hire. It also refers to the vans as 'Bluebird caravans' although that might just be referring to the vans that Bluebird caravans had for hire, rather than indicating they were built by or branded as Bluebirds: (Source: newspapers.com) A little less than a year later, on Saturday, 16 May 1959, Bluebird Caravans advertised in the SMH (page 42) that they had for hire the 'new Gypsy Holden' vans which were 4-5 berth and 11 cwt:
(Source: newspapers.com) The phrase 'Gypsy Holden' is intriguing, but I am supposing that it refers to a caravan built by Gypsy specifically to be towed by a Holden of the day. This was not an uncommon practice, and several other manufacturers told potential customers that their vans could be towed by a Holden. The connection between Bluebird Caravans and Gypsy caravans continued and is reflected in the following adverts published in the SMH on Saturday, 29 October 1960 (page 39) which tell us that Bluebird was an agent for Gypsy (or was it Gipsy? ). However, the first advert also refers to 'Bluebird' caravans in a way that suggests that the company was branding some caravans with the 'Bluebird' name at that point: (Source: newspapers.com) Note that in the second advert immediately above that Bluebird Caravans was actually selling as well as hiring out Gypsy/Gipsy caravans. The advert doesn't state that Bluebird Caravans was the 'Western Suburbs Agent', but that is evident from the address given.
Moving forward to Saturday, 16 February 1963, we find that Bluebird Caravans was now apparently an agent for Wayfarer caravans, and the company had moved to (additional?) premises at 780 Canterbury Road, Belmore: (Source: newspapers.com) In 1965, the range of vans Bluebird Caravans had for hire had increased as reflected in this advert in the SMH on Sunday, 21 March (page 35), and included vans built not only by Gypsy, but also Millard and Goodtime. The hire vans were still apparently available from 4 Robert Street, Belmore:
(Source: newspapers.com) The last advert for Bluebird Caravans I have been able to find in the press is this one published in the SMH on 24 July 1965 (page 48) for new aluminium vans for hire: It is unclear from all of the above whether Bluebird Caravans branded any of the caravans they hired out or sold as 'Bluebirds' although there is a hint that they may have. The only photographic evidence we have of a van supplied by Bluebird Caravans is the following caravan purchased by Caterpillar in Perth in 2015: The manufacturer of this van is unknown at this point. More photos can be found here. I will conclude this post with one other intriguing possible connection. On Wednesday, 11 October 1950 a private seller in Sydney advertised what appears to have been a second-hand Bluebird caravan in the SMH (page 24):
(Source: newspapers.com ) We are not aware of any caravan builders producing Bluebird vans in NSW at that point, so it might be possible that this van was built by whoever established Bluebird Caravans in Belmore, and that they became involved in the caravan industry earlier than the first SMH adverts for Bluebird Caravans in 1954 suggests. This is speculation, but I'm just noting the possibility.
Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Dec 16, 2020 10:40:40 GMT 10
HI Sissyhankshaw, Welcome to the forum, and thanks for showing us the photos of your new van. It's great to see that you're so excited. I trust that you will get a lot of pleasure from caravanning in it. I've checked your serial number A4112 on Twocutekelpies' Viscount register (and you're right it does start with 'A') and that indicates that your van was built in 1969, most likely very early in the year. Hopefully you'll share some photos with us as you work on the van and get it ready to head out on the road. By the way, you can get your photos to display in your post if you wish. Just follow Step 6 onwards in the Flickr instructions here. Good luck with your refurbishment. I'm sure the van will come up a treat. Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Dec 15, 2020 21:52:09 GMT 10
Hi Morgzord, Great to hear that your grandmother has passed down her Viscount Ambassador. That's a lovely treasure to receive. Judging by the cladding on your caravan, it is most likely a 1969 model Ambassador, but might be 1970. The serial number you've quoted doesn't sound quite right, and I wasn't able to read the number in the video clip although I tried several times. Based on the van being 1969 the serial number will be E9xxx or E10xxx with 'x' representing an additional digit. Regarding the weight of the van, the formula Franklin1 has given may be accurate. I've done a bit of googling, as no doubt you have, and seen various figures for Viscount's around that period, and the overall weights seem to be all well within the capacity of your car. For example this link www.caravanersforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=64549 is for a 1969 Viscount Duralvan and gives the weight of the van on the ID plate as 989kgs. The Duralvan was a bit more upmarket than the Ambassador with wrap around windows, etc, so I'm guessing it will weigh a little more than yours. The problem as you've identified is the ball weight for the Subaru. The ideal is supposed to be a ball weight of 10% of the weight of the van, but you can't necessarily rely on the ball weight being exactly 10%. For example our van (which I emphasise is not a Viscount and is much, much older than yours) weighs around 863kgs, but the ball weight is 150kgs because of its design and construction. (I had been looking at an H6 Subaru Outback when I bought our last car, but had to go past it for that reason.) The only real way you're going to know what the ball weight is by measuring it. One option is to get a friendly vintage vanner in the vicinity of your van to go and measure it. If you tell us where you van is in northern Victoria someone might offer. Another alternative is to go to the 'Viscount Caravan Owners - Australia' Facebook page and ask people with 1969 Ambassadors to tell you the respective weights of their vans. Unfortunately people are often unaware that they need to know the ball weight for the van and limit for the tow vehicle, and it is becoming increasingly common for modern vehicles to have a ball weight limit of 90 kgs or 100 kgs, even some actual 4WD's (as opposed to AWD's like yours). Hope that gives you some options. Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Dec 15, 2020 21:08:08 GMT 10
Hi Roehm and SGTL, That's an interesting puzzle isn't it? I have been looking at the photos of the "Tenison" for a few weeks and trying to decide whether the two vans you've mentioned are the same van or not. Where I'd got to previously was to think that may be the van on the Atlantic thread isn't actually an Atlantic...but that's not the question you asked Roehm. I've copied the photos and put them side by side (see below) - the "Tenison" is on the left, and the "Atlantic" on the right, I've compensated for the fact that the photo of the "Atlantic" was on a slightly different angle to the "Tenison", and I've also levelled the "Tenison" up: Looking at the vans side on there are a number of differences in the locations of the vents, the external light and the power sockets, etc. But let's just leave those aside for the moment. If we look at the side profile of the vans they are very similar indeed. However, the front of the "Tenison" is more perpendicular while the front of the "Atlantic" seems to slope backwards a few degrees. I also can see that the front of the "Tenison" seems to curve in at the bottom just a little more than on the "Atlantic", and that the rear end of the wheel arch has a slightly different angle to it compared to the "Atlantic", as SGTL observed. I also think that the window on the "Tenison" is a little wider than on the "Atlantic". However, overall the variations are relatively slight to my eye and I wonder if they are due (a) just to the fact that the angles of the photos are not exactly the same despite my fiddling, or (b) that the variations reflect the natural differences between vans that would have been hand built, or (c) that the "Tenison" at a claimed 10 ft is 6 inches longer than the Atlantic at a claimed 9 ft 6 in? I've also put the rear of the vans side by side, although I couldn't fully compensate for the different angles in this case. Nevertheless, looking at the rear of the vans, they again seem to be very similar and the placement and size of the two windows seems to be identical: Then we go inside and that's where the really big differences are. The layouts are completely different, with the "Tenison" being a possible 2-berth (one bed running along the off-side, and one using the table), while the "Atlantic" is 3-berth. Even more startling is the fact that the galley in the "Tenison" is at the rear on the near-side nestled between the wardrobe and the rear wall (which explains all the external vents, etc), while on the "Atlantic" the galley is on the off-side wall over the axle. Then there are differences between the vans in the construction and size of the table, and the overhead cupboards, etc. Both vans are single skinned, and most if not all of the differences in the layout could have been made if the "Tenison" was gutted and completely rebuilt...which does happen. However, in the end I agree with SGTL that the two are different vans, because of the slightly different profile of the front, the wheel arch and the slightly smaller side window on the "Atlantic". But that just raises another question - even if the vans are two different caravans, is it possible that they were built by the same manufacturer? And on this question I am going to say 'yes' because the differences are so relatively slight, and because of the similarity of the rear windows. The configuration of the rear windows is fairly unusual with most manufacturers either not installing a rear window in their small vans (ie 10 ft or less) or installing just a single window. Based on the assumption that the vans were built by the same manufacturer, who built them? Could it be Atlantic? Possibly, the overall profile of the vans, including the wheel arches is very similar, and the layout of the "Atlantic" is almost identical to the actual 50's Atlantics. BUT as far as I can tell Atlantic didn't put rear windows into their pre-1960 bondwood caravans. Funnily enough none of the forum members who have/had Atlantics have shown us the rear of their vans! Not sure why, but if you see this post, Belinda and MRFJ55 NOW'S YOUR CHANCE! (Just writing the last phrase in MRFJ55's language. ) Could the vans have been built by Tennyson? As far as I can find out Tennyson built caravans from 1957 to 1964 after which they closed down. That excludes the possibility that the "Tenison" was built in 1952 if it actually is a Tennyson. In addition I'm pretty sure that Tennyson vans had aluminium windows fitted, whereas the "Tenison" has wood framed windows. Taking a different tack, I can't find any reference to 'Tenison' or any vans built under that name. So, I'm ruling that one out. Could the vans have been built by someone else, and perhaps a manufacturer yet unknown to us? Obviously yes. To quote Donald Rumsfeld's comments about vintage caravans (that is what he was talking about wasn't it?) there are known knowns, there are known unknowns, and there are unknown unknowns! Looking at the 'identity plate' on the "Tenison", my guess is that at some point an owner needed something to verify the identity of the van, somebody told them it might be a 'Tennyson' and the owner then had a plate made up using their own spelling: The funny thing is that if you look at the drawbar of the "Atlantic", it too has had a nameplate made up that I am pretty sure isn't original either! Not sure whether we've reached a conclusion...? Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Dec 14, 2020 20:51:55 GMT 10
Hi Roehm, Beautiful photo. I was thinking Cowra until you mentioned the northern shores of our island state, so I’ll try the Royal Botanic Gardens in Launceston. By the way, I genuinely had no idea about Gypsy 10’s photo. I wasn’t just trying to stir things along. Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Dec 12, 2020 21:14:48 GMT 10
Hi all, Over the last few months I have been investigating the various Bluebird caravans built in Victoria and New South Wales. As now indicated in the post at the top of this thread, in the 1950's and 60's, Bluebird branded vans were built and/or sold by three different companies. This post concerns the Bluebird vans that we understand were sold by Jim Collins of the Bluebird Caravans dealership that was located at 79 Nepean Highway, Elsternwick. However the trail is very thin. As far as we know, Bluebird Caravans was a caravan dealer that sold some new vans that it sourced from different manufacturers, such as Huntsman (see higher up this thread). The only direct reference I can find in the newspapers to the Elsternwick based Bluebird Caravans is the following advert published in the Age newspaper on Saturday, 15 August 1964 (page 13): (Source: newspapers.com ) As you will see the advert is for a damaged caravan, however the intriguing element is that it says that the van in question was built by 'Finsbury aluminium', whatever that might have been. The Chrysler plant in South Australia was located at Finsbury, so there may be a connection there? The other item of interest that came to light out of my search was the following advert from the Age on Saturday, 25 June 1966 (page 75) for a 6 1/2 cwt 'Bluebird Caravan' being sold by Valiant Caravans:
(Source: newspapers.com ) In 1966 Valiant Caravans was located just down the road from the address of Bluebird in 1964, and I don't know whether the Bluebird Caravan company changed its name to Valiant Caravans. However the reference to a light Bluebird caravan brought to mind the following item about a 6 1/2 cwt 'Bluebird Sandrover' van from the 1967 Winser Caravan Manual and Tourist Park Guide: (Source: K Winser, Caravan Manual & Tourist Park Guide, 19th edition, 1967, page 146) In the past I have dismissed the reference to 'Bluebird Sandrover' as being one of Keith Winser's not infrequent typos in his Caravan Manuals. But perhaps Bluebird was responsible for the development of Sandrover caravans, and later simplified the brandname to just Sandrover? Another theory to be investigated! Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Dec 12, 2020 15:37:18 GMT 10
BLUEBIRD CARAVANS [Burwood, Victoria]Manufactured by Kleut & Starcevic Highbury Road, Burwood Vic
Over the years there have been at least three manufacturers or dealers who have sold caravans or operated under the 'Bluebird' brandname. These include caravan manufacturers located in: - Burwood, Victoria - this thread
- Belmore, New South Wales - click here
- Elsternwick, Victoria - click here
It seems unlikely that there were any links between these manufacturers/dealers. If anyone has information which shows a connection between the manufacturers in different states, we will combine the threads.
The earliest direct information we have about the Bluebird caravans built by Kleut & Starcevic is an advert published in the Melbourne Age on Saturday, 29 November 1952 (page 9): (Source: newspapers.com ) As indicated the Bluebird caravan on offer was a 10 ft, 3-berth van. A further advert printed in the Age on Saturday, 14 March 1953 (page 24) tells us that the 10 ft Bluebird was 6 ft wide (standard for that period) and was fitted with inner spring mattresses, a range of cupboards, wardrobe, shelves, laminex table, cabinet, plastic sink and water pump (which accompanied a water tank mentioned in other adverts). Furthermore it was painted cream inside:
(Source: newspapers.com ) By Saturday, 23 May 1953, Kleut & Starcevic were advertising in the Age (page 28) that they had added a 16 ft Bluebird caravan to their range. This model was 7 ft wide: (Source: newspapers.com ) An advert placed in the Age on Saturday 15 August 1953 (page 47) told prospective customers that two of the 16 ft Bluebird caravans could be viewed at Courtney's Caravans in South Yarra: (Source: newspapers.com ) Note that only two caravan could be ordered for Christmas which suggests that Kleut & Starcevic were quite low volume manufacturers.
This is the earliest reference I know of for Courtney's Caravans, and the last advert for Kleut & Starcevic's Bluebird caravans. That might indicate that their venture into caravan building did not last very long, or possible that they had begun to build caravans for Courtney's Caravans. It appears that Courtney's Caravans sourced their vans from other companies, so it might be possible that some vans were sourced from Bluebird. However, that is speculation at this point. Unfortunately we do not have any photos of these Bluebird caravans, so have no idea of what they may have looked like at this point. Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Dec 11, 2020 22:14:25 GMT 10
REFERENCE NO: UC #36In September 2018 Annesfx sent me the following photos of an unbranded caravan that her friend was considering buying, and wondering whether I had any ideas about its origins. We had a conversation about it at the time but couldn't reach any conclusions. The van has a couple of interesting features including the slightly keeled roof and the V-shaped front windows: The cladding on the sides with the multi-strand profile was only introduced around 1964, but from the shape of the van I think it is earlier than that. My feeling is that the van has been re-clad at some point. If you are able to tell us anything more about this caravan please post on this thread using the reference number so that we can connect your post to the caravan concerned.Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Dec 11, 2020 15:18:27 GMT 10
Hi all, In September 2018 Wal Robinson, who is a friend of the forum but is not online, sent me some photos of a very unusual 'Bluebird' 12 ft caravan that he had seen at the Caravan Repair Shop in Arundel, Queensland. As it happens the same caravan was photographed by Kimbo at the Leyburn Sprints Caravan Display a month earlier. I have spent quite some time intermittently over the intervening period trying to pin down the caravan's origins, but to no avail. You can read an article about the history of the van and its restoration published on the CaravanCampingSales website on 3 October 2018 here. The article includes a photo of the van before its rescue: (Source: CaravanCampingSales www.caravancampingsales.com.au/editorial/details/barnfind-vintage-van-hits-road-again-114889/] )The caravan has a whole host of unusual and even unique features which are revealed in the photos. I will comment on the possible origins of the van below, after you have had a chance to see the van. The photos below were taken by Wal Robinson and Kimbo, and in one case by Jarrod Wade, proprietor of the Caravan Repair Shop. Unless otherwise stated, the photos are Wal's. The observations about the van's features in maroon are from Wal. The remainder (in black) are mine. EXTERNAL
(Photo: Kimbo) Note the keel shaped roof, V-shaped front windows and the flat panel below the front windows (above and below). (Photo: Kimbo) Single pane awning windows at the front on the side and twin pane awning windows at the rear (above and below). Wal: All three stoneguards (front and rear) have been re-panelled with new similar but non-matching alloy. (The original window stoneguards are shown in the photo of the van before rescue above.)
Wal: Front stone panels and side flashes are all in original colours respectively:
Wal: External air vent above warming cupboard above stove (below):Side window: Tear shaped wheel arch: Wal: Van had no rims when purchased. Axle stubs are Datsun 1200. Rims almost impossible to find with that particular stud pattern. They finally located only two, but in alloy. Take what you can get I suppose! No evidence of any previous wheel arch spats.
Wal: The Caravan Repair Shop made a new drawbar as old one was rusted, hence weld join and reinforcing. No serial number available. (However, Wal was told that the original drawbar did have a serial number on it):
'Bluebird' brandname (or name assigned by a previous owner?): Bluebird roof ornament: Wal: Very low profile hatch.
Wal: These fabulous (plastic? fibreglass? plaster?) Bluebirds adorned the stoneguards - two on rear and one on each front shield:
Rear stabilisers: Front stabilisers: Wal: Blue annexe poles, naturally. Hexagonal. No annexe or awning present.
INTERNAL
Wal: They said the clock works.
Wal: Pull right hand dinette backrest cushion forward and lo and behold, an alloy storage area, ventilated, for pantry-type items:
Wal: Note front hatch winder handle (above window pelmet). Also note gas powered light:
(Photo: Jarrod Wade)
Wal: These photos show the saucepan/frypan racks above the sink works area:
Wal: Sink pump foot pedal on floor to left of cupboards:
Wal: This shows the original floor lino pattern (below). The flooring was unsaveable. Note cut-out round holders on bottom shelf. The hose connector needs to be connected to sink fitting.
Looking towards rear:
Dressing table, cabinet and drawers:
'' (Photo: Kimbo)
(Photo: Kimbo)
Dressing table cabinet open:
Rear hatch winder handle to right of cupboard:
Rear divan/double bed:
Wardrobe and mirror:
Stove alcove and crockery rack/draw below it:
(Photo: Kimbo)
Another view of the crockery rack/drawer with other fitted drawers on the right:
View of open hatch and room divider. Note fly wire between hatch and roof. Also the warming cupboard above the stove alcove:
(Photo: Kimbo) Front hatch winder handle and view of hatch raising mechanism: (Photo: Kimbo)
(Photo: Kimbo)As shown above, the Bluebird caravan incorporates a number of unusual features, including the keeled roof and V-shaped front windows, the combination of single pane and double pane side windows, the hatch raising mechanism involving a winding mechanism, the galley split between the offside (sink and fridge) and nearside (stove alcove, warming cupboard and fitted plate and glass racks, etc), the ventilated food storage compartment behind one of the dinette seat cushions, and the well fitted out dressing table. What can we tell about its origins? The multi-strand aluminium cladding on the sides was introduced for general use in Australia around 1964, so that suggests that this Bluebird van was built no earlier than 1964. And what about who built it? That is a puzzling question. Several theories have been suggested: A. The caravan was built in New Zealand: This has been suggested by several people including Hughdeany because of the van's shape and windows. In addition, some Bluebird caravans were sold in New Zealand in the past. I have discussed this suggestion with Don and Marilyn Jessen, who were involved in caravan manufacture in NZ for many decades and have written a number of books about New Zealand caravans. Don Jessen responded as follows: "…We used to have a Bluebird model in the 1950's but it was essentially an English Sprite. Auckland Caravan Co did the V fronts with a semi-keeled roof line on some of their models in the 50's and 60's and Dad did a flat fronted semi-keel type roof on the Liteweights from 1959 to 1977. Neither of us used the stipple aluminium, although it was used here in the sixties on other brands. The side paneled aluminium was certainly not available in New Zealand prior to 1998. The shape also does not represent any known 'brand' of caravan here either. So really I cannot shed any light at all on the mystery of the Bluebird.”On the basis of Don Jessen’s comment I am discounting that the Bluebird van was built in New Zealand. B. The caravan is an English import: Keel-roofed vans were not unusual in the UK, and the British manufacturer Bluebird produced some caravans in the 1950’s with keeled rooves, V-shaped front windows and a front panel profile not dissimilar to the Bluebird caravan above. Furthermore the British Bluebird’s bird logo - as shown on the brochure below - was not unlike the bluebird decorations on this Australian van: As you’ll see from the link I provided above, the Caravan Repair Shop who restored the van, believed that the van may be a British Bluebird. However, the sticking point is that British caravan manufacturers changed over almost exclusively to fibreglass or plastic cladding in the 50’s and I cannot find any examples of British manufacturers building vans with unpainted aluminium cladding in the 50’s, 60’s or 70’s, let alone the multi-strand profile aluminium cladding on this Bluebird. I also cannot find any examples of a British Bluebird which are like this Bluebird. For these reasons I am discounting (for the moment) that the caravan has British origins. C. The caravan has Australian origins: There were at least three Australian caravan manufacturers or dealers who operated under the Bluebird brand name – one in Belmore (Sydney) see here from the late 50's through to the mid-60's, one in Burwood (Melbourne) see here in the early 50's, and one in Elsternwick (Melbourne) see here in the mid 60's. The Elsternwick dealer in the mid 60’s sold caravans branded ‘Bluebird’, but our understanding is that they were sourced from Huntsman. The Belmore dealer may also have sold 'Bluebird' branded caravans. However, there is nothing at all about this Bluebird caravan which provides any link to any of the three firms as such. So where does that leave us? Because of the unusual and unique features of the van – especially the wind-up hatch, the split galley, the construction and layout of the dressing table and the crockery/glassware drawer/rack, etc - my best guess at this point is that this Bluebird was built as a one off by a talented and creative craftsman. It seems to me that a lot of the features in the van would be too expensive to build in a commercially produced caravan. However, I am open to argument or other suggestions. Don Ricardo ADDENDUM - October 2021: Some additional photos of the above Bluebird caravan taken at a vintage caravan event in Queensland in December 2018 which provide some different perspectives on the van (photographer unknown):
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Post by Don Ricardo on Dec 11, 2020 11:09:09 GMT 10
Hi Gypsy 10,
I've got no idea, but I don't think I've ever seen so many yacht masts concentrated in one place!
Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Dec 10, 2020 22:38:03 GMT 10
Hi again Traveleze1967, I received an answer from the Jessens in NZ as follows: "Re the traveleze it is a brand i hadn’t heard of until I saw this one on our local Facebook site. It is not a recognised brand, probably only a very small number like 10 or so built. We are continually finding small number new brands or unknown brands as people take to restoring Caravans in great numbers over here." The "this one" is a reference to your van. The other things I've found by digging around is an NZ report in the Vintage Caravan magazine from a few years ago stating that a 1969 Traveleze caravan had been stolen, and an expired advert for a 1971 Traveleze on Trademe.co.nz. So I think that indicates that there are a handful around and the late 60's/early 70's seems to be when they were built. Given that you understand that the vans were build in Christchurch, I wonder if the Christchurch library may be able to help you with some information from old trade directories, telephone books, or other info? Of course what makes it difficult to research Traveleze in NZ is that caravans/camper trailers called Traveleze were also built in the USA from the late 40's (apparently) and there were far more of them than the NZ variety. But still you can sort through all that. Let us know what you find out. We always enjoy a good detective story. Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Dec 10, 2020 14:08:14 GMT 10
Hi Brazbak, I'm going to give a slightly different view to Roehm's... Looking at the front of the van in the internal photo and the thickness of the timber in the window frames, it seems to me that your van has a double skin. That means it has an external cladding of ply and another inner skin of ply with some sort of a frame in between. I can see some of the frame at the front where the internal ply has been removed. So that suggests that there is some sort of frame, even if it is not particularly robust. I will further speculate that there is window framing between the two skins, and if you take the internal skin off where you want to put the larger servery window, you may be able to enlarge the opening by enlarging the frame. However, the frame would need to be strong enough to withstand the weight of the servery hatch. One thing that it may be useful for you to know is that in the 40's and onwards caravan builders realised that they could build vans with pretty light frames and then use the furniture in the caravan to give the whole thing it's strength. The manufacturer of our 1949 van described the technique as the "aircraft principle of stressed-skin construction". So you may find that your van has a pretty flimsy frame, but that is not necessarily a problem, depending on the furniture you put into it which will give the thing some strength. At the same time it may mean the furniture needs to be self supporting to some extent, you can't just hang shelves off the walls for example like you might in a house with solid timber uprights to screw into. And you also need to consider balance - if you put all the heavy things on one side or up one end you will have problems with towing, even to the point of being catastrophic. Do you know much about the history of your van? Based on the shape it looks oldish, but I wonder if it's actually been built more recently (ie in the last 30 or 40 years - which is 'yesterday' on this forum ) for commercial purposes. I'm basing that on the way the door has been built and the fact that the windows looks as if they don't open. In suggesting what I have above, I am not saying I know for sure, or that Roehm is not right, just giving you some things to investigate about how the van is built. After all Roehm has actually built a caravan from scratch, which I haven't. However, what you find out about the construction of the van will determine which way you go. By the way you mentioned marine ply and ordinary ply. They are basically the same thing. The difference is just in the grade of the sheets of wood and the type of glue which is used to bond them together. Marine ply is meant to be more water resistant than ordinary ply because the grain is finer, therefore there are fewer holes for water to get in, and the glue is not water soluble. Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Dec 8, 2020 13:25:27 GMT 10
Hi Brick, Welcome to the forum. 'E41' sounds like the beginning of the serial number for your van. If the serial number is/was 'E41xx', in other words with two extra digits, then that would indicate that your van was built in 1969. That would fit with the log cabin cladding I think you are referring to. In any case the serial number for an Ambassador around that period would normally be 'E' plus four numbers. If you can post some photos of your van we can probably confirm the year for you. There are instructions on how to post photos using the 'Add Attachment' button if you click here. However, I notice that you are posting from your mobile, so make sure you follow the additional step to find the 'Add Attachment' button - you have to scroll right down on the forum screen and click on 'Desktop'. If that all sounds too confusing, email some photos of your van and I'll happily post them for you. My address is caravanhistory@gmail.com Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Dec 8, 2020 10:59:37 GMT 10
Hi Kat1981, It's great to hear that you're ready for the next step in your caravanning journey - registration. Regarding the weight of your van, I don't think we have any info here about the weight of that particular model. But in addition, we don't know what modifications, etc, might have been made to the van that might have changed the weight from the factory figure. With all that in mind, I think you would be wise to take your van over a weighbridge and get it weighed as it now stands. There are public weighbridges around where I think you can weigh your van for free. You can google the locations in your particular state. You're much better having an accurate figure than the figure Viscount provided in 1971. Apart from anything else you'll know how the weight stacks up against the towing capacity of your tow vehicle, and how much you can afford to load into your van when traveling. Good luck with registration. I hope you van sails through with flying colours. Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Dec 8, 2020 10:36:32 GMT 10
Hi Traveleze1967,
Welcome to the forum and thanks for telling us about your caravan. We're always pleased to hear from vintage vanners in other parts of the world. Your van looks as if it it's in great condition, and a nice classic shape.
We don't know a great deal about NZ built caravans on this forum, but I've consulted a book on NZ caravans called 'Vantastic' and haven't been able to find any reference to a Traveleze caravan. I don't think that's a definitive answer though, even though the book is pretty comprehensive.
We did have a Traveleze caravan built in northern New South Wales in the late 60's, but I don't think there's any connection to yours.
As a next step I'm going to email Don and Marilyn Jessen who were involved in the NZ caravan industry for many decades and see if they can identify your van for you.
Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Dec 8, 2020 10:20:31 GMT 10
Hi SGTL,
That's quite an early Don Cadet. Its serial number is 2114, and the Cadet model started with the serial number 2000 (or perhaps 2001). Mind you it does have the aluminium framed windows, whereas the earliest Cadets had wood framed windows, so I am guessing it's about 1957.
Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Dec 2, 2020 22:26:30 GMT 10
Hi all,
For anyone interested in this Don Cadet caravan, the serial number is 2325.
The receipt mentioned by Marjie2 indicates that it was sold by Don on the 12th of March 1960 as a 'used' van, so I estimate that means it was built in 1959 or very early 1960.
Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Dec 1, 2020 9:26:07 GMT 10
Hi Hodgy, Fascinating to see your Tempo Matador project. Thanks for telling us about it. It is going to be an amazing thing to see and use once its done, and well worth the effort I reckon. I note that you said it has a 'Ferness' caravan body. Did you mean 'Furness'? Please don't think I'm being picky about your spelling, I just wanted to make sure we are referring to the same caravan builder. Last night I was hunting for something on the forum and found some photos of a Tempo Matador sent to me last year by forum member Penny61. I'd forgotten about them. You can find them by clicking here. Are they photos of your van, or is there another one out there? I compared the photos but couldn't quite decide whether they were of the same vehicle. Anyway great to have you on the forum with such an interesting van/motorhome.
Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Nov 30, 2020 12:12:08 GMT 10
Great effort with the windows Karavaninkallista. There were bondwoods produced in the second half of the 50's and early 50's with the aluminium windows (quite commonly in fact), but it looks as if yours were added when the aluminium cladding was put on to 'update' the van a bit. I'm looking forward to seeing the finished project. It's going to be an excellent bit of work I think. Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Nov 29, 2020 19:22:27 GMT 10
Hi Mustang, Sorry to be slow to respond to your post, but you're absolutely correct. It's the Clyde River seen from the western side of the bridge at Nelligen, about 16 kms from Bateman's Bay: Your turn... Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Nov 27, 2020 20:45:15 GMT 10
G’day Humpyboy, Great to hear that you’ve passed your 5 year anniversary. That’s wonderful news. Well done to the effort you’ve put into your treatment and recovery (as well as to your docs!). I can still remember the shock I felt when I read the post about your diagnosis, and then the gradual optimism which has grown as you passed each milestone. Wonderful also that you’ve been able to keep working through the Covid-19 restrictions. That’s a real blessing. Now all you need to do is to get back to that Roadcruiser! Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Nov 25, 2020 15:07:54 GMT 10
Hi Roehm Thanks. I am surprised that I got the right answer (never having been there), and that someone from Tassie didn't pop up to name the location. Where's this? At first sight there's not much to identify the location, but it is a very well traveled route, so let's see how people go with it. The name of the township (which is down a small rise to the left rear of the photo), the road or the river will all be sufficient to get a tick. Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Nov 25, 2020 12:21:15 GMT 10
Hi Roehm, Reobug's Rambler looks identical to Jenniewren's, so I think it's a fair bet that hers was also built by Newlands. Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Nov 25, 2020 12:12:39 GMT 10
Hi Roehm,
Well, I think we've established - maybe - that your photo was taken in Tasmania, and I'm going to take a wild guess that it's the Bay of Fires...
Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Nov 24, 2020 21:12:47 GMT 10
Hi Roehm,, Well, given that Australia is an island, as well as a continent, as well as a country...I think that means that the mainland is the biggest island, which must make Tassie the second biggest island...wouldn't it??? Maybe my logic is incorrect... Don Ricardo
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