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Post by Don Ricardo on Feb 7, 2021 14:41:14 GMT 10
Hi Kimmee, Welcome to the forum and thanks for telling us about the two Aristocrat vans you have seen. Have you seen the thread on Aristocrat/Aristavan caravans in the 'Down History Lane' section? Click hereDon Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Feb 6, 2021 19:00:42 GMT 10
Wow, Surf Tragic! You’ve definitely proved your point about scraping off all the paint!! I am in awe of your meticulous and amazing work. Your van will be a work of art, which is only fitting given it’s history. Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Feb 4, 2021 14:53:19 GMT 10
Afternoon all, In June 2015, Vintagevalerie posted photos of her caravan here asking for assistance to identify the make, model and year: One other feature of the van was that the serial number welded on the inside of the offside arm of the drawbar began with 'R', followed by a couple of other symbols/letters - 'CC' perhaps? It was noted that the double awning windows at the rear were not original, and there were various suggestions about the origins of the van, but Hughdeany expressed his view that the van was a Viscount, even though the serial number didn't fit the standard Viscount format. Nobody was able to effectively refute his view - and let's face it Hughdeany knows his vans - and the question of origin was left in the air!
Then on 24 January 2021 on the same thread where Vintagevalerie had posted her photos, Jaycee posted a photo of her van and asked if it was a Viscount Regal. There has also been some discussion on Facebook regarding Jaycee's caravan and she has very kindly provided me and Twocutekelpies with a number of photos of the van:
It is evident from these photos that Jaycee's caravan has the same origins as Vintagevalerie's, and the serial number on the inside of the offside arm of the drawbar is 'R1' indicating that this is the case:
After quite a bit of discussion online and offline, the general consensus is that the vans are Viscounts which were built in the Adelaide factory around 1963, and Hughdeany is still of the view that the vans are Viscounts. The evidence for the vans being Viscounts is as follows: - The type of diamond impressed, unridged cladding, the livery on the vans (ie the placement and style of the coloured panels), and the spats is the same as that used on Viscount's 1963 model caravans from the Sydney and Melbourne factories (see for example here). The livery in particular is a style which was used by very few other manufacturers, the only other example I can think of being Chesney on their vans from around 1964/65.
- Similar livery continued to be used by the Adelaide Viscount factory on some of the caravans they built up until the late 60's (see post to come).
- The profile of the front of the vans with the two large awning windows is the same or very similar to the profile of the Adelaide built Viscount vans right through the middle and later 60's (see here) and was carried through even when the name of the vans was changed to Vogue.
- Hughdeany and Twocutekelpies are of the opinion that the internal cabinetry in the vans is very similar to that which appeared in Viscount caravans.
There are two possible arguments against this. One is that the serial numbers (such as they are) beginning with 'R' do not fit the normal Viscount format and are not located in the normal place for a Viscount serial number (on the side or the top of the nearside arm of the drawbar). However, while we know the format of Adelaide serial numbers up until around 1962 (a three digit number with no letter of the alphabet) and the format of their serial numbers in the late 60's ('VC' followed by two or three digits - see post to follow for examples), we don't know what format was used in Adelaide in between, so the 'R' serial number may be possible. The second argument is that Jaycee's van was badged as a Scenic (see first photo of her van above), but our understanding is that the Victorian company Scenic sourced caravans from various manufacturers and sold them badged under the Scenic name. Therefore it is possible that they rebadged some Viscounts. So the current thinking is that Vintagevalerie's and Jaycee's caravans are both Viscounts built in the Adelaide factory in 1963 or thereabouts. This conclusion is based on a few assumptions, so if anyone thinks those assumptions or the identification of the vans are in error, it will be interesting to hear their thoughts.
Thanks to Jaycee for providing the additional photos of her van so its origins could be explored.
Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Feb 2, 2021 21:23:57 GMT 10
Hi Traceylee, Great to hear about your caravan. To answer your question, there are not a lot of Fleetwinds still around. I think Fleetwind was a fairly small manufacturer, although some of their vans were sold branded as Hunters. We’ve seen four or five Fleetwinds on the forum and a few others on Facebook, maybe a dozen all up. They’re not nearly as common as the big sellers such as Viscount, Franklin, Millard and Coronet. You’ve probably looked at the link Shesgotthelook gave you. There are a couple of quite nice Fleetwinds there. Does your van look like any of those? It would be great to see some photos of your van. I’m sure lots of forum members would like to see them. There are instructions on how to post photos on the forum if you click here. The easiest way is to use the ‘Add Attachment’ button, but I see you are posting via your mobile, so note that there is a little trick to making the ‘Add Attachment’ button appear on your phone. It’s all explained in the instructions, but yell out if you have any trouble. We’ll look forward to seeing the photos of Dolly. Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Jan 31, 2021 19:57:12 GMT 10
Hi Daisy123, That’s exciting to hear about another Jack Vincer van. We’d love to hear more about it and see some photos of it. There’s information on how to post photos on the forum if you click here. It is easier to post photos on a desktop or laptop, but can be done from your mobile too. If the instructions look too hard, you’re welcome to email the photos to me and I’ll gladly post them for you and you can then post about the photos. My email address is: caravanhistory@gmail.com It will be great to see some pics of your van and how it compares to the other Vincers. Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Jan 31, 2021 14:20:44 GMT 10
G'day everyone, This month (January 2021) saw our Don out of its garage for the first time in...TWO YEARS!! The Don said it was very excited to be out and about again, although it said some of its mechanical bits were a bit stiff. January 2019 had seen the van and us at our favourite spot at Tuross Head on the southern coast of NSW. For various reasons - work, overseas travel, etc - we didn't get out again during that year. Then 2020 happened! We couldn't get to Tuross Head because of the fires in January 2020, the VV Nationals in May 2020 were postponed, and then we were confined to 5 kms and then 25 kms from home for a large part of the second half of the year. We were looking forward to getting to Tuross Head again in January this year, and then...the day before leaving...the borders closed. However, after scouting around a bit we were able to book a site for a week and a bit at the Breakaway Twin Rivers caravan park near Alexandra (Victoria). Only about 100 kms from home, but on the other hand given the border and travel restrictions, it didn't seem such a bad idea only being a couple of hours from home. It was great to be away and Dona Ricardo and I - not to mention the Don - enjoyed our time away relaxing in a quiet spot: The caravan park is right alongside the Goulburn River... ...and is also bordered by the Archeron River: The views from the nearby Archeron Cutting are spectacular: And one night the Goulburn River looked as if it was on fire as the sun set behind it: The caravan park is adjacent to the Acheron Breakaway Bridge built in 1918: One of the attractions of the park is that those with river side sites can practically fish from their chair without moving! Apparently there are quite a few trout in the river. This is one of the fish that got away... We were camped close to a rather nice renovated 1975 Franklin Arrow: As with many caravan parks, quite a few of the the Breakaway Twin Rivers sites were occupied by permanents. There were lots of Classic era Viscounts, Chesneys and Millards. The oldest permanent van was a well preserved 14 ft 1969/70 Wayfarer. Oh, did I mention the birds? There were lots of ducks on the river and wandering around the park: And there were hundreds of Corellas roosting in the trees above us which woke us up like clockwork at 5.30 am in the morning, did a fly by at around lunch time, and then chattered to each other from 5.30 to 9.00 pm each evening. Unfortunately there was a down side to being surrounded by the 'wonders of nature'. The Corellas that camped in the tree above our van left lots of droppings on top of the van. There was not much we could do about it at the time, and I gave the van a wash when we got home. However, I found that the bird droppings had burnt through the paint on the van roof and made it blister! So looks like there's a paint job coming up in the near future! Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Jan 30, 2021 12:05:11 GMT 10
Hi Xav92, The best way to post photos using your mobile is via the 'Add Attachment' button. There are instructions on how to do that here. However because you're using your mobile there's an additional step you need to take to make the 'Add Attachment' button appear - just scroll down to the bottom of the instructions. Once this button's there, it will enable you to post photos from the photo album on your phone. Very easy once the button is there! I should add that the instructions are for an iPhone, and I am assuming that the same will work for Android or Google phones. If you're using one of the latter can you let me know if the instructions work, and or the screens are the same, please? Thanks. In the meantime we'll look forward to seeing some photos of your van. Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Jan 30, 2021 11:45:20 GMT 10
Hi all,
As some of you will have seen, this thread was started by a scammer (possibly a bot) advertising gambling facilities in Vietnamese. I have deleted the post and banned the user and their IP address. Thanks to those forum members who alerted me to the post.
However, I so enjoyed the responses to the initial post - particularly Surf Tragic's - that I've left them there for a short while for others to enjoy before deleting the whole thread.
Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Jan 28, 2021 22:02:35 GMT 10
Evening everyone. When is a 1964 Viscount, not a 1964 Viscount? Answer: When it's a 1964 Valiant Alumvan! For more information about an apparently small group of Viscounts branded as 'Valiant Alumvans' in 1964 see here. Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Jan 28, 2021 21:45:06 GMT 10
Hi all, It seems that some interesting things were happening in the Sydney Viscount factory in 1964. Firstly, Viscount had introduced a new model of its top range Viscount which introduced a new style of aluminium cladding with a multi-ridge profile and double awning front and rear wrap around windows, as shown here. Secondly the 'A' series serial numbers started being used for the Viscount caravan, range instead of the Valiant range which then started using the 'B' and later 'C' serial numbers. And then thirdly, there was this... Some of the new style Viscounts with the new cladding and double awning wrap around windows came out of the factory branded as Valiant Alumvans with 'A' series serial numbers. The first example that we are aware of at this point is the following Valiant with the serial number A576, photos of which were posted by Steve R on the Aussie Vintage Caravans Facebook page here on 22 April 2018: Interestingly, A576 has both the vestiges of Valiant signage and Viscount signage: A later gas inspection certificate from 1973 indicates that the model of the van was a 'Valiant A': Another example of this type of Valiant is A608 belonging to Alicia B, photos of which she posted on the Viscount Caravan Owners - Australia Facebook page here on 4 July 2020, and on the Vintage Caravan Renovations and Sales, Australia Facebook page here on 3 January 2021: Note the metal Viscount badge in the above photo, just left of the door. Nevertheless the signage on the front and rear of the van clearly states that it is a Valiant Alumvan: Another example, and the van in the best preserved and original condition is A581, photos of which from 9 April 2015 are posted below, with thanks to the Do You Own a Viscount Facebook page: The serial numbers of the Valiant caravans have a range of 32 (ie A576 to A608), which means that the vans concerned may have all been in the factory at the same time, or certainly that they were built within a week or two of each other. Even so, at the same time Viscount was building standard Valiants in the midst of the these upmarket vans. During a discussion off forum about this series of caravans Twocutekelpies has shown me a photo of Valiant A584, which is the regular 1964 Valiant that we are familiar with. Something else to note is that - on the basis of Twocutekelpies' Viscount register - around the time these caravans were built (ie around these serial numbers) appears to have been the point when the 'A' series serial numbers were transferred from the Valiant range to the Viscount range. So what are we to make of this group of 'upmarket' Valiants? One possibility is that the Valiants were produced at a time of product change in the Viscount factory, and wires got crossed on the production line during the process resulting, in a bunch of caravans intended to be branded as Viscounts mistakenly being branded as Valiants. Possible, but seems unlikely. If it was one van that got 'misbranded' then maybe, but not a whole group. Surely if a group of vans was incorrectly branded, then it would have been picked up on the production line, or at final inspection or at the dealerships to which they were delivered? Perhaps Viscount considered for a period that they should upgrade the Valiant model range, with the intention of making it less of an 'economy' range? Possible, but seems counter intuitive. By 1964 Viscount had established a pretty clear marketing strategy with three separate brands and level of fittings, etc. The Viscount was the premium model, the Ambassador the middle model, and the Valiant the economy model. Having established the three brands and marketing strategy, it seems unlikely that they would have wanted to muddy the waters by providing a 'premium Valiant' that looked the same or similar to the Viscount. All the same, the Valiants shown in this post are all branded as 'Valiant Alumvans' whereas the standard 1964 Valiants were branded just 'Valiant' and seem likely to have wooden frames. So perhaps Viscount did see some advantage in selling some Valiants with aluminium frames and upmarket features? But if so idea seems not to have lasted more than a few weeks, based on the other Valiants we have seen from 1964. Maybe the upmarket Valiants were a special order of some sort. Again possible, and perhaps that is the explanation for this group of Valiants. I'm not sure we'll ever know, but it is one of those intriguing puzzles for us to wonder about. One final comment, in the post two before this one on this thread show photos of a 20 ft x 8 ft wide Valiant with similar styling including wrap around, double awning front and rear windows that Hughdeany advised us was most likely built to be an onsite van. At the time this 8 ft wide van was listed for sale it was advertised as a 1966 model. However, the overall styling is so similar to the 'upmarket 1964 Valiants' shown in this post that it raises the possibility that the wide caravan may also be a 1964 model rather than 1966. Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Jan 26, 2021 14:01:39 GMT 10
Hi Roehm3108 and Brazbak, Merge done. Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Jan 26, 2021 13:56:20 GMT 10
Hi Xav92, Not all manufacturers put a serial/chassis number on their vans, although I presume they had some way of identifying them for their own records. It sounds like Miami might be in that group. Prior to 1989 when VIN numbers were introduced for caravans, there was no requirement for manufacturers to provide an ID number for their vans. I did a search of the forum, and there is no mention of any serial or chassis numbers for Miamis, apart from Mapelgum who told us that they couldn't find a number for the Miami they restored either. You may be interested in their thread here. All is not lost though. You can apply to VicRoads for a VIN and have that stamped on your drawbar prior to registration. Not as good as an original chassis number from your perspective, but at least it will get you on the road. Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Jan 26, 2021 13:38:22 GMT 10
Hi Nikkimc,
Welcome to the forum.
Based on forum member Twocutekelpies' Viscount register, the serial number 2558E is from 1971, and you are correct 'E' indicates an Ambassador.
Hope that helps.
Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Jan 25, 2021 20:51:20 GMT 10
Hi Jaycee, I’m glad you’ve been corresponding with Twocutekelpies, and I gather Hughdeany has been involved too? Hughdeany identified Vintagevalerie’s van as a Viscount as well. I’m interested that they dated your van as later than I have. My reasons for suggesting that it is from around 1963 are as follows: 1. Your van is clad in plain, unridged cladding with a diamond pattern impressed into it which was used by Viscount during the first three years of the 1960’s. In 1964 Viscount in Sydney introduced multi-strand cladding. Viscount Adelaide might have been slower to use the new type of cladding, but they were certainly using it by the mid 60’s and later. 2. The painted panels on your van are the same design as those used on the 1963 vans built in Sydney and Melbourne. In 1964 Viscount started using a wide coloured band between the windows, and after that coloured flashes which changed year by year. And by the mid 60’s or so, the Adelaide factory was using a single narrow coloured band on the sides just below and between the lower part of the windows. Of course I’m always open to argument, but I think the above is pretty persuasive. Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Jan 25, 2021 11:05:10 GMT 10
Hi Jaycee,
Hmmm, 'R1'. Well that does make it interesting.
Your van looks identical to Vintagevalerie's van higher up this thread, which also has an 'R' serial number, and possibly that's why you've posted on this thread? Up until recently we thought that Viscount only started using 'R' serial numbers around 1973 when 'R' was used to denote the Royal model (although Viscount had used 'Royal' as a model name from the 50's onwards). However, we're still learning about Viscount. Part of the issue is that at one point Viscount had three factories - Adelaide (where they started originally), Sydney and Melbourne. There were differences in appearance and fittings for the models which came out of the different factories. We've got a reasonably good handle on the Sydney built vans because there was such a large number produced, but not so much on the Adelaide and Melbourne built vans (Melbourne only operated for a couple of years).
My thinking is that your van was probably built in the Adelaide factory. By at least 1966 the serial number on the Adelaide vans started with 'VC', and early on (say up to 1961 or 2) it was just a sequential number with no letters involved. So the 'R' serial numbers may have stood for 'Regal' or 'Royal' or had no particular meaning (although I think the latter is less likely).
The other comment to make is that the coloured panels on your van are the same as on the 1963 Viscounts from the Sydney factory, with similar aluminium cladding, so that's why I suggested that your van was from around that date, and I'm still sticking with that.
In the last few years one of our forum members, Twocutekelpies, has done an enormous amount of work exploring the history of Viscount and compiling a Viscount register. I will ask her to tell us what she thinks in relation to your van and my Adelaide theory. Interestingly she doesn't seem to have Vintagevalerie's van on her register, but that may be just because she hasn't seen the photos.
Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Jan 24, 2021 20:57:36 GMT 10
Hi Jaycee, Welcome to the forum, and thanks for showing us a photo of your van. Based on just that photo your van looks like a Viscount from around 1962 or 3. The model will depend on the length. If you can tell us the serial number welded on the drawbar and the length of the van (just the cabin part measured about a foot/30 cms above the floorline) we can most likely tell you more about it. We’ll certainly assist you as best we can. Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Jan 22, 2021 15:06:32 GMT 10
Hi Flyingtale, You may be interested in a thread started by Morgzord regarding the weight of his 1968 15 ft Viscount Ambassador - click here. He reported that when he weighed his van it came in a 'nudge under a ton' and the ball weight was 90 kgs. If your van is actually only 12 ft or 14 ft then it will weigh less than Morgzord's and, if it is the smaller one, may even come somewhere near 800 kgs BUT remember that that's the van without anything in it. Once you chuck in your gear, some water in the tank, a full gas bottle, etc, you will be adding quite a bit to the weight and you'll be over the towing capacity of your vehicle which brings with it legality, insurance and personal safety concerns. The other factor is the tow ball capacity of your vehicle. If it has a towing capacity of 800 kgs, the tow ball capacity (ie the downforce of the van on the tow ball of your vehicle) may be 80 kgs, but it may also be less. That's something you need to check out. Your owner's manual will probably tell you the maximum tow ball weight or Toyota will be able to. Even if the van does end up being just within the stated towing capacity of your vehicle, I agree with Jennison and Koala that you don't want to be towing something that is right on the limit of your vehicle. You're much better off towing a van that leaves your vehicle with some 'spare' capacity. I also agree with the comment that a FWD vehicle is not ideal for towing because the weight on the back can affect the contact your driving and steering wheels have on the road, and make for a nerve wracking towing experience. Sorry that we're all bits of wet blankets, but we'd prefer you to be safe and enjoy your journeys with a van than otherwise. Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Jan 21, 2021 16:59:29 GMT 10
Hi Eve66,
Thanks to SGTL for posting the photo of the Sunshine van you posted about. It's great to see a pic of the van.
The style of the van looks very much in the mould of the Sunshines shown in the 1962 advert shown at the beginning of this thread, so my guess is that it is from around 1961 to 1963. The style of the flash on the side suggests a date around then too. The advert states that the vans are available clad in either Rescote (ie bondwood or ply) or aluminium. The vans in the advert are shown as being painted, so I’m thinking that they are probably examples of the Rescote clad vans, whereas your friend’s is one of the aluminium clad vans.
The van looks as if it’s in reasonable condition externally. However, sometimes there can be hidden problems in the frame, or there have been water leaks internally. Are there any internal photos you can show us?
As I said in my earlier post, it is quite a few years since someone could pick up a reasonably complete and fair condition vintage van for $500, and having seen this photo I’ll stick with that comment.
Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Jan 20, 2021 21:54:55 GMT 10
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Post by Don Ricardo on Jan 20, 2021 21:48:39 GMT 10
Hi Sarcoates, Welcome to the forum, and thanks for telling us about your 1968 Fiesta. As Mustang has said, we would love to see some photos of your van. There are instructions on how to post photos on the forum if you click on this link. Let us know if you run into any difficulties and one of us will try and help you. It will be great to see your van. Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Jan 20, 2021 21:43:41 GMT 10
Hi Eve66, Welcome to the forum. Sunshine caravans are quite rare - they were built in an era when many small manufacturers hand built caravans in small numbers. There were never large numbers of Sunshines around I don't think, and so from that perspective they are not common or easily found. All vintage caravans are collectable, but there are some brands which are eagerly sought after and other brands which are not, and what is eagerly sought after can change over the time according to fashion and fads. Unfortunately for your friend, Sunshine caravans are probably not in the 'eagerly sought after' category. That means that the buyers who are likely to pay the best price are people whose parents or grandparents had a Sunshine, and for whom the brand triggers lots of happy memories and who would love to have a Sunshine similar to the one they remember. In the case of vintage caravans rarity does not necessarily translate into a high price. Regarding value, we have a policy on the forum of not discussing prices to avoid the possibility of potential buyers talking down the price, or friends of potential buyers talking up the price. In the case of a fairly rare brand it is very difficult to offer a price guide anyway. However, in the end the value of your friend's Sunshine will depend on its condition, and how much they are willing to sell it for, and a buyer is willing to pay. Assuming that the van is in a half reasonable condition for restoration, I will say that it's quite a long while since you could pick up a vintage van for $500. So it all depends on how much your friend wants to get rid of the van, and how much a few hundred dollars one way or the other mean to them. If you have some photos of the van, you are most welcome to email them to me at caravanhistory@gmail.com and I will post them for you. We may then be able to give you an assessment of the van's condition which may assist with bargaining. And of course we would be interested to see the van ourselves out of interest as well. Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Jan 16, 2021 19:45:52 GMT 10
Hi Aussieute, You’re really making progress. I like the blue paint - it makes the van look very aristocratic. Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Jan 14, 2021 17:03:04 GMT 10
Hi ScottieP, Thanks for your post and welcome to the forum. We will certainly try and help identify your van and its year. To do that we will need to see some photos, and I suspect that you’ve tried to do that with your posts? However, to post photos you need to register on the forum. You can then post photos as attachments or by providing a link to the photos. You’ll find instructions on how to do that by clicking here. Alternatively you are welcome to email some photos to me and I’ll happily post them for you. My email address is: caravanhistory@gmail.com Once we’ve seen the photos of your van hopefully we’ll be able to identify it and point you in the direction of any documentation that may be available. Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Jan 14, 2021 16:53:10 GMT 10
Hi Nev360,
Skyline and Franklin were separate and independent manufacturers. However, in the early 60’s, Skyline did begin to sell vans sourced from other manufacturers under the Skyline name. One of the sources was indeed Franklin, but those vans pretty much looked like Franklins, just with a Skyline badge on them. Further, they still retained the Franklin serial number.
That means that if your van doesn’t look like a Franklin - which it doesn’t from the photo you’ve shown us - then it won’t be a Skyline badged Franklin. But it is still possible that it’s a Skyline.
Do you have a particular reason for thinking that the van is either a Franklin or a Skyline?
If you’re having trouble posting some more photos, you’re welcome to email me some photos and I’ll post them for you, and then we can work out who might have built the van. My email address is caravanhistory@gmail.com (but let me know here when you’ve emailed the photos).
The other thing that may help us in identifying your van is if you can tell us if there is a serial number welded (or created out of weld) on the drawbar of the van? That might tell us what we need to know.
Don Ricardo
PS Sorry, the links I gave you in my earlier post didn’t work. I’ve fixed them now, so they’ll take you to the threads I intended.
Also, I’ve inserted your photo into your first post so that people can see it without going to the link. Hope that’s ok?
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Post by Don Ricardo on Jan 11, 2021 21:01:10 GMT 10
Hi Nev360, Welcome to the forum. From what I can see of the van in the photo, it isn’t a Franklin. Franklin didn’t produce any vans with the “leaning forward” style of front above the waist line. You can see some typical Franklins if you click here. If you can show us some more photos, including the front and the rear and inside, we can probably identify the van for you. Regarding posting photos on the forum, you can find some instructions here. The simplest way is to use the ‘Add Attachment’ button at the top of the ‘Create Post’ window. But if you look at the Flickr instructions you will also see how to post photos directly from Flickr using their URL. We’d love to see some more photos of the van, so please do persevere with posting your photos. Don Ricardo
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