Asbestos in vintage caravans

[BluetangJo]

I know I have discussed this before, but now I have a decent picture of it.

Does anyone know what this insulation is? It has gauzey stuff on one side, & fluffy stuff on the other (technical terms). The van is an early to mid fifties homemade.






Jo-who-is-going-to-become-a-senior-member-on-silly-questions-alone

[kiwi]

wool?

[JBJ]

Hi Jo.


Not sure what it is. Put some good rubber gloves on & rub the fibres between your fingers. If they are soft the insulation could be a harmless fibre, but if they feel coarse & gritty, its a fair chance it could be asbestos. Until the early 70's asbestos was an acceptable insulation , & no one was greatly concerned about it. I can remember going for a job in the Barraba Asbestos Mine (not that far from Tamworth) in the early 70's.


My first thought is to remove it completely, but its difficult to do safely if there is asbestos content.

Next thought would be to check your yellow pages for Asbestos removal Specialists, & get the insulation assessed by them.

I had a builder friend that worked with Asestos for many years. He went out with Asbestos poisoning, so I wouldn't touch it until I was sure.



Sorry to scare you like this , but its bad s**t, & make sure what you have is safe.

JBJ

[BluetangJo]

Thanks guys,

Its not wool, & it is gritty. Its not going to come out easily either because its stuck to everything, and sadly I can't afford the asbestos busters.

Dunno what to do now, especially as I've been working around it for the last couple of weeks. At least the van is outside away from the house.

Jo <cough> <cough>

[JBJ]

Hi Jo,

If it wont come out easily, & you really want to keep a health hazard ( I'm serious here for a change), the only thing you can do is to seal it in somehow.

I see its between wall framing . If the framing doesnt need replacing, I would try to get some sort of sealing solution, maybe rubber based paint or something that will totally encapsulate the fibres. then after applying it you would need to push it down flat with maybe a board painted with oil or grease so it doesnt stick to the sealant.

If you need to replace framing, I would seal the insulation the same as above before trying to replace the framing bits. If you have to handle the insulation use good breathing protection, as well as fully covered body parts. Cut the insulation clear of the framing you are replacing.

I personally dont think its worth rebuilding a van with asbestos insulation, & I'm the last one normally to use anything protective.

Maybe thats why I'm nearly deaf from using grinders etc all my life without ear protection.


Maybe cut a section out & take it to the asbestos specialists for an appraisal? I could be totally on the wrong track with the material. There may be absolutely nothing to be concerened of.

But the only insulation I know of that was used in the 50's was Asbestos. Wool didn't get a look in until late 70's at earliest, Nylons/dacrons etc were too expensive in the 60's, Cellulose
( paper derivatives) werent popular till late 60's from memory,
& I cant remember anything else being used in the 50's.

I'd hate to lose a secret admirer , so be careful.

JBJ

[Roehm3108]

Without disregarding JBJ's suggestions of care etc, I wonder if it isn't rockwool insulation. It looks very similar. I had it installed in my house in Adelaide. Apparently it's spun from lava rock (don't ask me how), but very fire safe, and would not be dangerous as far as asbestosis goes. Still would pay for you to have it checked out to confirm what it actually is. Another place to take it might be an insulation specialist. Wonder if the CSIRO would be helpful here?

Ray

[BluetangJo]

Yes JBJ, I'll be careful especially as I'm probably your only secret admirer that doesn't drink ;D

On checking round the internet, I couldn't find anything exactly like I've got, but most of what I read has leant me towards Ray's suggestion of rockwool.

Today I rang two local asbestos removers. Both seemed to think its rockwool, but to be on the safe side I'm taking a sample to one of them to send away for analysis.

For future reference, in case anyone else strikes this problem, the test will cost $110 and a couple of the information websites are
www.mahalo.com/answers/health/how-can-i-tell-rock-wool-from-asbestos-it-looks-like-cotton-wool
www.inspect-ny.com/interiors/Rock_Wool_Insulation.htm

I'll let you know how the tests turn out.

Thanks heaps for all your help.

Jo

[Franklin1]

Hi Jo, I think the $110 spent now will prove to be a very worthwhile "investment" at this stage of the restoration. If the insulation turns out to be non-asbestos, then you can safely continue with the restoration. If the stuff contains the dreaded substance, then you can at least decide whether it is worth persevering with the van, or just write it off as an unfortunate experience. In my local area, the minimum cost to dispose of any amount of asbestos is $120. A small bathroom renovation a few years back led to about six small plastic shopping bags of broken fibro sheeting. Cost us $120 to have a bloke at the authorised disposal place take the bags from our car and chuck them up in the air over the side of the big dump bin they had. [...So much for safe practices and procedures... ] Now, in NSW, any removal of asbestos has to be done by an authorised remover, so imagine the cost of getting that done! The van might not be worth the effort, eh??!

Fingers crossed that the insulation is non-threatening!!

cheers,
Al.

[BluetangJo]

Panic is over guys & JBJ gets to keep his secret admirer! ;D

Since I had to handle it to get a sample, I decided to do a burn test (Dad was with Textile Physics in CSIRO so that means I know important scientific words like "test" )

Anyways, its not asbestos, not rockwool, not baa baa wool, not man made fibre, but I'm 99.9% sure its cotton! Untreated at that cos it went up like it had petrol on it. I then stuck it under a magnifying glass, the gritty feel was 50yrs of dust.

This is a pic of raw cotton


Some info I found on the web "Cotton insulating batts were installed in many homes in the U.S. from about 1935 to 1950" bugger all I know, but it fits the time frame.

Bonus is, I get to keep next weeks grocery money ;D ;D ;D

Thank you everyone for your help during my week of panic

Jo

[JBJ]

Hi Jo,

Great to hear its safe. I've never come across cotton used as insulation like yours before, because as far as I know commercial crops of cotton werent produced until the late 60's or later.

Not to worry, its good to know that you're van & you are not toxic.

JBJ

[BluetangJo]

JBJ, I didn't say I wasn't toxic ;D ;D ;D

Found this about cotton & thought it was kinda interesting even if a bit off topic

www.cottonaustralia.com.au/facts/factsandfigures.aspx?id=21

[floozy]

Wondering if it might be Kapo. Kapok is a plant product, and was grown for stuffing mattresses, cushions, upholstering furniture. It looks and feels like cotton and quite soft/silky. You might find dark flecks which would be the seeds. Link to Kapok: img.alibaba.com/photo/11307412/Kapok_Fibre.jpg looks pretty similar to me.

[coronet1960s]

Hi everyone!
Brand new member - having sold our 2001 Jayco to help with our Granny flat for our 18 year old, we (Cindy & Alex) found ourselves missing our caravan.
Enter e-bay, and our recent purchase of a late '60's coronet aluminium clad caravan in pretty good condition...
We are looking to update the interior to white walls, red cupboard doors and black and white check lino - but before pulling out the shag pile carpet and lino squares underneath, hubby hears it is most likely asbestos lino squares - recommendation - plywood flooring plastic layer and lino over the carpet!!
Sad but better than regretting it later - any advice/comments??
Cheers,
Cindy...

[coronet1960s]

Loving the replacement... My own personal vintage- late 60's... so much character... not missing the 2001 model at all !! Heard this is an addiction waiting to form... could this be true? :-)

[Franklin1]

Hi Cindy, and welcome to the forum. ;D

Floor coverings in the latter 1960s basically fell into two groups:

- asbestos vinyl tiles

- flexible vinyl sheet and tiles.

Armstrong-Nylex were a big producer of asbestos vinyl tiles, which are tough as concrete but brittle as fresh celery.

One way to confirm if you have the asbestos type is to look for a tile that has partly lifted or is partly loose, and put the blade of a chisel underneath it. Prise the tile up at a 90 degree angle to the floor, and see what happens. If it snaps readily, it will be the asbestos vinyl type. If it bends, it is the flexible vinyl stuff.

Most of these tiles were self adhesive, and the glue doesn't last for infinity. You may well find the tiles will separate from the floor rather readily, with perhaps a few being a bit stubborn. If you believe you have the asbestos type, you can have a go at carefully lifting them in one piece if the glue is no longer holding.

There's no such thing as "safe asbestos", however from memory these tiles were made with white asbestos, rather than the more deadly blue. I removed all the Armstrong-Nylex asbestos tiles out of a 1970s van just over a year ago, and it hasn't (cough, cough) affected me yet.

You can see the last of the asbestos tiles in the bottom of this photo, and you can also see how they snap when disturbed...



Hope this helps.

cheers,
Al.

[coronet1960s]

Thanks heaps Al for the reply - & for the photo - really helpful. Will look into it further before we do anything drastic.

[Geoff & Jude]

i have been told by flooring people that the asbestos tiles don't present a problem as long as they're in good condition and sealed/polished properly.

if they have a nice pattern that you like, it may be worth considering keeping them.

geoff

[boblor]

Hi Cindy
If your floor is in reasonable order (no broken or chipped tiles) you should be able to lay your sheet vinyl over the tiles and be quite safe. However if you are doing any work later (like drilling holes etc) just bear in mind and clean up in an approapriate manner. As stated some of these old tiles do come up quite easly.
Cheers boblor

[DC3Td]

Asbestos is quite the odd product. After WWII, the old man was manager of Asbestos Cement Ltd,Garden Reach, Calcutta. It was never considered carcinogenic & rarely if ever did he or the workers wear masks.I discussed this with him 25 years ago before his passing.He would tell of masses of dust swirling through the factory & basically workers just wiping the dust off. Ironically whilst cancer took him, it had no relation to his working at that factory. But as always, you have to be attentive to your own health.

[coronet1960s]

Thx everyone for your advice - really really helpful,

Seriously, I just want to get stuck in and get it out, but am badly hampered by a hubby who wants me (me?) to last forever ;D sure... cant think why

Upon closer inspection there is a layer of grey tiles through the caravan with a cream layer on top (which snapped at my test of 90 degree bends) and then plush pile carpet on top. My thinking is that if is a late 1960's caravan then the 2nd layer of vinyl would not have been for many years later (seriously why would you? - we were told one owner?) so it would be unlikely ? to contain harmful substances? Still obviously working through suitable first steps for our household approval - hope to post some photos soon !!

[Franklin1]

Hi Cindy, asbestos started to be phased out of building products in 1984, and was completed in 1987. If your test tile snapped readily, it will have an asbestos content.

Crikey!...vinyl, plus asbestos, plus carpet?!! That floor must feel like a trampoline at times!

Laying the asbestos tiles over the original vinyl tiles suggests to me that either the people were slack/lazy, or the original tiles were still in complete condition but maybe just worn out a bit. Why would you lay a second layer of tiles over a first layer that had lifted or was damaged?

Maybe you could have a go at prising the asbestos tiles up away from the first layer. Maybe have a go at the tiles in the doorway so you can stay outside the door. Did the tile you tested come away from the tile underneath pretty readily?

Sneak out and have a go when nobody's looking.

cheers,
Al.

[surfingyogini]

Over the weekend hubby and I got quite excited to discover what we think is the original lino tiling under three other layers of lino... we were planning on giving it a good scrub and then sealing it somehow. I just read in the thread in the for sale/wanted section that this is probably asbestos? So now I've no idea what to do! Can I still clean it and seal it or should I just cover over the top of it (can't afford to have it professionally removed!). This is what they look like:



Thanks! Liz.

[Franklin1]

G'day Liz,

I was quite surprised to read the comment in the other thread that lino contained asbestos, because I've never come across that information in any of my research. I'm wondering if there's been some confusion with vinyl tiles, some of which contained asbestos?

Lino (full name linoleum) is made from oxidised linseed oil, or other suitable drying oils, and pigments mixed with cork and wood flour. This is applied under heat and pressure to a backing of jute, canvas, or bitumen-saturated paperfelt.
The pattern in inlaid linoleum goes right to the backing and cannot wear off. Printed linoleum is made from similar materials to inlaid lino, but it is thinner and the pattern is only printed on the surface, and so can wear off.

To determine what the covering on your floor is, you have to look at the underside of the covering and see if the backing is a jute (or hessian-type) layer. If it's not, then you've got some other type of flooring and not lino. If it's some other type, you can prise a corner of it up and bend it 90 degrees to the floor. If it snaps readily, it will most likely be a vinyl flooring containing asbestos. If it bends without snapping, it will be a flexible vinyl not containing asbestos.

Can you find a corner of the flooring that is hidden out of view, and do the tests I've described?

cheers,
Al.

[viking]

I'm not 100% sure, so take this with a grain of salt, but I don't believe there is any asbestos in the surface of the Linoleum. Any that does exist is in the backing material and/or glue that the Lino is held down by.

Cleaning and polishing the surface should not pose any risk (assuming you don't use a power tool that may cut into the backing) as the majority of the lino is a solidified linseed oil.

Asbestos is only dangerous when turned to dust, so chemical cleaning and polishing the surface will not release any dust, and therefore not pose a risk. Any cutting (knife blade, not saw) should also be OK, but any method such as sanding would probably be best avoided.

Finally, because Asbestos is only dangerous when in dust form, there is no reason not to leave the floor intact and cover over it again. Because the asbestos is then fully contained under the new flooring there is no risk from it.

[Roehm3108]

Might pay to check this thread and similar topics regarding asbestos and asphalt linos

www.inspectapedia.com/interiors/Floor_Tile_History.htm

Ray