ol' pommy tow car

[Deleted]

I always wondered how Arthur Pullin's Vanguard Spacemaster towed Joker11 .......Joker 11 is 16 foot long, and there's not much change out of a ton in weight. So, how did a pommy 4 cylinder tow such a big van






Joker 1 being towed with the Vanguard Spacemaster




Joker 11 with the Vanguard




I guess one way to find out is buy, beg, borrow or steal an ol' vanguard, and hook up Joker 2 .......

Speaking to Arthur one day several years ago, I asked him............ he told me the old Phase 1 and 2 Vanguards have a Massey Ferguson tractor engine, with a heap of tourque ......and an overdrive for cruising ..............mmmmmmm !

Vanguards were Holden's biggest competitor in the fifties, in fact my father had one for several years, and traded it on his brand spanking new FB wagoon in 1961.
Dad bought the run out model FB, and got it cheaper, coz the EK had already been released.........

So, I couldn't resisit when a Vanguard came up for sale recently in the Qokka (Perth's trading post) ........it was cheap enough .........and unlike the Spacemaster, its a
1951 Phase 1 with the beetle back ......nice style !
Its supposed to be marone, but to me, it looks as though its had a coat of mission brown fence paint ........remember Mission Brown? ....every gutter, downpipe, fence & gate on a Perth 1970's home was painted in the horrible brown colour.......then they'd colour the concrete driveway a horrible brown to match ! ......coulda been worse I guess .....being the 70's, lucky the driveways weren't coloured lime green ;D ;D !!

I haven't yet taken any pics yet of the Vanguard, and with the truck out of action, haven't been able to get it to Beverley ...............but it's the same as this one:















......and, apart from goin' for a squirt down the road with Joker in tow .......... I have a plan ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D



Mark

[humpyboy]

......and, apart from goin' for a squirt down the road with Joker in tow .......... I have a plan ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Mark.

Okay you've got my intrest ;D Do tell.

[griffin]

Good to see another ol' Pommy tow car to keep my Vauxhall Velox company Should be more of 'em

I don't know much about Vanguards, Gran dad had one, same style as yours, light brown or a gold colour as I remember. They always had a reputation for strong reliable motors though

Is your plan to replicate the journey depicted in this 1950 advertisement for Standard ;D

This item says the motor is rated at 68 h.p. My data shows the same year Holden only has 60 h.p. and the Velox 64 h.p. and they are both sixes

George

[Don Ricardo]

Jan 14, 2011 13:55:46 GMT 10 @marktaylor said:

......and, apart from goin' for a squirt down the road with Joker in tow .......... I have a plan ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Aha, Mark has a plan...

And I know what it is...I've seen his plans unfold before:

To tease the rest of us with a comment here, a hint there, an interminable silence at the critical moment, until we can hardly bear the tension!

Ok Mark, so tell us your plan. The second hint is... ;D ;D ;D

Actually I think you should give the Vanguard to Cruz. The profile of the back and boot is almost identical to the profile of the back of her Runlite. They would look great together.

Re the link between Vanguard and Ferguson tractors, it was the other way around I think. If memory serves me right, when negotiations between Harry Ferguson and Ford for Ford to produce Ferguson's tractor fell through, Ferguson decided to build the tractor himself in England and he then sourced his engines from Standard Vanguard...

Griffin:

That's a great advert - thanks for posting it. It's interesting that the van used for the Standard utility feat was a Furness. Makes me wonder if Furness had a deliberate policy of providing vans for such events? Somewhere on the forum is an article about a trip made by an early FX Holden made from Adelaide to Cape York and back(?) towing a specially built Furness. I can't find it at the moment, but when I can I'll post it on the DHL Furness thread.

Incidentally - just to get back on the subject of the thread, sort of - was the name Vanguard only used for the cars while the utilities were just referred to as Standards?

Don Ricardo

[RollyDog]

Welcome to the Pommy car brigade Mark. :)Another questonable tow ability was the Trail a Home Bantam I found for kel's Kombi a few years back was sitting with it's tow car,an early Hillman Minx 1400cc wagon. I suppose that is possible considering my Munro was towed with a Camira !!
Good luck with the Vanguard.
Rollydog

[shaneandsimoen]

Hello Don,

all this talk of Vanguards on the forum, nearly fell of my chair.

Standard - car company name,
Vanguard - car model


The Motor company was called Standard Motor Company, named by Reginald Maudslay in 1903, it is said that he called his car company Standard as he wanted his car to be made purely of principles and components that had been tried and tested and made to the highest standard. ( remember this is 1903 where lots of car companies were formed and many ideas were tried)

The Vanguard was released to the public in 1947, named after the the latest battleship H.M.S Vanguard, launched in 1944 ( 9th warship to be called Vanguard, first H.M.S. Vanguard in 1586).

Made in Britain - Designed for the World

The grey Fergie tractor TE20 and Vanguard were built side by side on the assembly line.
There was an agreement between Harry Ferguson and Standard from 1948 till 1958 after Ferguson and Massey combined to be Massey Ferguson.

While most people say that they are the same motor, both had same internals, wet sleave liners and pistons, bearings, the Fergie block is a different cast, smaller valves in head.

Mark,
nice car the Phase 1 Vanguard is, was known as beatle back,
compaired many cars at the time you got 4 gauges, with seperate speedo with a trip meter, mechanical overdrive in 1951, electric in 1953,.

Called Spacermaster in 1953 when the Phase two came out , nearly the same as the phase one except it had a boot.
Only known as the Spacemaster in Australia, were made here, the Toyota Motor Company on the West Gate Freeway in Melbourne used to be Standard Motor Company.

Good towing car, motor has good torque.
Is good to put a Phase 3 head on the earlier motors as they have bigger valve stems, were known to drop valve heads on the Phase One.

Both the car and the ute were called Vanguards.
In Australia on the bonet both sides there was a badge with the words Standard, in England they had a badge with Vanguard.

During World War 2 Standard Motor Company aquired Triumph Motor Company, to be called Standard Triumph.
In 1961 Leyland took over Standard Triumph, dropped the Vanguard name in 1963 when they released the Triumph 2000.

Standard ceased to exist after 1963 in England and 1964 in Australia as Standard had a contract with the Victorian Electricity Company to produce utes.
( The Triumph named continued on but the Standard named ceased, at the time when Maudsley called his car Standard it meant to the highest quality but in the sixies standard meant base model.)

The Vanguard 4 cylinder motor was used by Morgan in their cars, Triumph TR2, 3, 4, & Triumph Renown.
Was also known to be use in motor boat at the time.

Hope this sheds some light on Vanguards.

Even though I have 2 Phase 3 Vanguards, my favorite is a Phase 2 Spacemaster, which I have a 1953 model in the shed to restore, one day AK ( after kids).

Shane

[humpyboy]

"Hope this sheds some light on Vanguards."

Geeeeeez Shane is there any light left to shed? it is amazing what one can remember on a subject if one has enough intrest in it, some interesting facts in that post, thanks Shane.

[willyn]

;D

Thanks Shane for the information on Vanguards and Standards
Lyn and I were looking at an investment house last week and the guy who owned the property had a 60s vanguard and two standards the early model and the last model in Australia they were under sheets in his garage and they were fully restored to there original appearance and specifications
I dont think these days people realise how good these motor cars were
The Vanguards had sixteen inch wheels and could go almost anywhere a lot of other cars couldnt go a lot of cockys owned them and they where enormously reliable
I never owned the early slope back sedan but I did have a 1963 twin carby Ute and It was possibly the best ute Ive ever had I had it in the northwest in primitive times when the roads were all dirt and corrugations and never a breakdown not once in the 3 years I drove it did it give me any trouble
the pommie cars I have owned started with my first car when I was 14 a 1939 hillman
a standard ten
a morris major
an austin A30
a morris Isis ( 6 cylinder twin carb version) of the morris oxford
a 1959 3.1 jaguar
a 1946 Hillman
two zephyrs
2 vauxhall veloxes
and a a 1959 105e ford prefect
funnily enough the reliability of all these cars was awseome ;D
except for the Jag it caught fire on canning Hwy in 1968 it may be still there for all I know
the others were amazing little cars for there Era

Willyn

[curtis]

Just like the Pom's to use an existing engine (from anything they can find) in another vehicle. My Morris 25 has a truck engine in it and that was back in the 30's?!

I am loving all the talk on English cars, especially towing vans!! ;D ;D ;D

Thanks guys - keep it comming.

Dave

[Don Ricardo]

Hi Mark and Shane,

Mark - a further comment on your post:

Jan 14, 2011 13:55:46 GMT 10 @marktaylor said:

I always wondered how Arthur Pullin's Vanguard Spacemaster towed Joker11 .......Joker 11 is 16 foot long, and there's not much change out of a ton in weight. So, how did a pommy 4 cylinder tow such a big van

From looking at info about vintage caravans in different countries, I think the answer to your question about pommy 4 cylinder vehicles is that maybe it is just that we Aussies and the Americans have a preoccupation with using large vehicles with 6 cylinders or more to tow our vans with. When you look at period photos of UK and European vans in the 50's and 60's many of them seem to be towed with what we would regard as relatively small vehicles - Hillmans, Cortinas, Simcas, Citroens, Austin 1800's, Morris 1100's, even Triumph Heralds... So it's not that the pommy 4 cylinder cars couldn't be used to tow with, just that we have developed the view that we need something bigger.

In 1995 we had to make a decision about whether we would use our Toyota Cressida or our 4 cylinder Tarago to tow our 900 kg Don. The advice we received at the time was that the Tarago would make quite a good tow vehicle - and in fact would be superior in some ways to the Cressida because of the weight of the Tarago - it just depended how quickly we wanted to get to our destination, and how easily. We ended up putting the tow bar on the Cressida because we wanted to get from A to B quickly and easily... ;D ;D ;D But I think that's part of the answer as to why Aussies (and Yanks) go for larger cars - we probably cover larger distances than do UK and European caravanners, and at higher speeds.

Let's face it, if you can't travel down a British country road in your Triumph Herald and van at greater than 40 kmh because the road is barely wider than your rig, then it probably doesn't matter if your can't go much faster than that anyway!

Shane:

Thanks for posting the info about Standard/Vanguard. I remembered that Standard was the manufacturer and Vanguard the model, but I was trying to work out why the advert didn't mention Vanguard anywhere, just Standard. But it was really interesting to read about the difference between the Australian and English built cars, and the other details you posted. And I'd forgotten about Toyota (AMI) taking over the Standard factory - or was it that AMI stopped building Standards and instead began to build Toyotas, before then being taken over by Toyota? Perhaps the latter?

A little bit of trivia for you regarding Standard motor cars, Ferguson tractors and Don caravans - a locksmith told me many years ago that the door key for Don caravans was the same one used for the ignition switch on Fergies. Speculating just a bit, I suspect that means that Fergies used the same key system as Standard vehicles, and that Don may have used Standard door handles, lock barrels and keys for their vans (I can post a pic if you're interested). Maybe Don sourced some other items from Standard as well...

Don Ricardo

[rodp]

I have a 1948 Ferguson tractor which I use to cut grass with using a slasher.I can vouch for the torque of this engine. An amazing 63 year old machine.There are lots of them still in use and spare parts are readily available,which is amazing for such an old machine.

[DC3Td]

As an aside,Morris Minor motors were used in Centurion tanks! Not as drive engines but as generators. cheers gordon

[mgandwartz]

Hi, just for info. I had a Mulliner coach built Vanguard Estate with overdrive some years ago. (1990's) these are fairly rare and have that bit extra weight. I was told they make great tow cars. the guy i got it off also had a vanguard ute (diesel if my memory is correct) which he used to pick up old cars and trucks and parts.
I sold the car to a guy in Mt Cotton area outside Brisbane, who had the most eclectic range of vehicles i have seen and so many that i suspect it never got finished even though there was only a few weeks work left. Anyway it could be available.

[19darryl48]

Finally a subject I can relate to as I am also a pommy car enthusiast having finished at full restoration on a 1955 ZA MG Magnette.I upgraded the car with a larger motor,5 speed gearbox highway diff 3.9 to1 as replacement for the 4.8 to 1 and of course a boostered disc brake conversion.The restoration was easy compared to trying to convince my wife we now NEED a Sunliner van.I think she may get a surprise birthday present ??.

[Deleted]

thanks guys for your comments re the ol' pommy tow car .

........and thanks Shane for the interesting history on the Standard / Vanguard ..........interesting what you say about the overdrive, mine doesn't work , the seller told me its the solenoid ...........but from what I'm reading in your info, its supposed to be mechanical on the 51 model, not electrical?

.......and interesting horse power statistics George ......... no wonder the ol' Vanguard motors along nicely, it certainly doesn't feel sluggish .......

In fact, the Phase 1 Vanguard is an ol' darling to drive ............compared to the Holden (FX), it feels firmer on the road, it has a nicer 3 on the tree gear selector ......and a nicer feel about it.............and the equipment level is far superior to the FX, but the Vanguard was alot more expensive ........does anyone recall the price of a new FX in 1951?




a copy of the original sales invoice for the car I've purchased




Mark

[griffin]

Mark

I have prices from a Feb 1950 Motor Manual showing the Holden was 750 pounds, a locally build Vanguard 867, an imported one 899 pounds. The Velox was 670 or 730 pounds for the local or imported respectively so the Vanguard was by no means cheap

Curtis

My long suffering unfinished restoration project is a 1934 Big Six Vauxhall roadster, a model which was also fitted with a truck engine, the 3.3l unit from the Bedford. If it aint broke don't fix it was a British motto I think

I managed to catch up to the only other going example I know of while holidaying in Canada recently. It escaped from Aus :oin the 1970s and now lives in Detroit so I had to take a detour so I could have this photo. Mine will be almost the same colour, apart from the wheels and should make a good tow car, I've already got a tow bar ;D

George

[Don Ricardo]

Very nice indeed Mark.

The receipt refers to a "Vanguard saloon". Saloon...isn't it a shame that none of today's car makers refer to their vehicles as 'saloons'. The word has an air of opulence and relaxed traveling about it.

Wikipedia says that 'saloon' is British English, while 'sedan' is the US equivalent. Looks like we've taken the US path - just like the now almost ubiquitous 'SUV'.

Don Ricardo

[Deleted]

G'day George,
one of our members over here (Gentleman Jim) has one of those ......not sure whether its a 34 though











Mark

[griffin]

Hi Mark

That roadster is a later model, a 14hp 1.8l, looks like its a 1939 model but also produced after the war.

I recently heard from a mate in the UK who has several vans and he is looking for a the earlier 14hp to tow one of his pre-war vans. It happens to weight in at 26cwt with it's coal stove etc I have a 14hp tourer and I can't imaging putting even half that behind it

Here's an advert for the Vanguard from February 1950 Modern Motor, one could almost think I'm changing camps A Humber or a Rover has always appealed though

George

[shaneandsimoen]

Hello Don,

yes saloon, estate car, names that you don't here people talk about when talking of modern cars, can you imagine someone saying that they own a Commodore Estate, language and car description has change a lot since then.

Most people when buying a new car expect ever thing in them these day,
compare when Vanguards and others makes were around in that era,
to see in a sales brochure that opening a vent describing it as air-conditioning, a radio and heater was available if you wanted extras, having to get out to turn on you rear lights ( at least you knew that they were working )
young kids would look at you stupid


Mark,
the earlier overdrives you pushed the gear lever towards the dash when in 3rd gear to be in 3rd overdrive. The electric solenoid pulled a lever on the gearbox to engage 2nd and 3rd overdrive.
Yes they are a nice car to drive,
you say that yours is a 51 model?


Shane

[John]

YES!!!
Other pommie tow cars! For a while there I thought I was the only one!
Haven't got any photo's as I suffer from my dads disease, "I don't need any photo's, I can walk out to the shed if I want to look at it"..............
In any case, I have a 1968 series Va Humber Super Snipe. ( A lot like the one that Reddo tried to burn down his garage with a few years ago...)
The car was bought new in '68 by my Grandparents to replace the FJ Holden that they gave my uncle (he still has it)
Off on a bit of a tangent here... the FJ replaced a 1925 Dodge Tourer.
My Gradparents went to the country in the early 60's to visit relatives for the weekend and came home to my dad who was 17 at the time and his newly acquired 1925 Dodge tourer (he still has it...) and a broken shed beam from where Dad took the engine out and didn't prop the wooden beam and broke it in half.
The FJ had to sit outside for a few months until the new double carport was finished!
Anyway, Dad did his apprenticeship through Neals Motors in Sth Melbourne. Neals was the Rootes Group agent and when it came time for Grandad to buy a new car it came down to the Humber (built by Chrysler at this time....) or the Holden Brougham.
Not sure why, but he chose the Humber.
I'm in the process at the moment of not restoring but doing some serious maintenance on the car. ie: new front end, new diff etc (It sat for over 10yrs without being moved, however Grandma paid the rego and the insurance on it every year!)
I'm hoping that it'll be done in the next few months but ya never know with these things.
Anyway, its nice to have you on board Mark!
Regards,
John

[cobber]

I'm not sure the Vanguard fans will enjoy hearing about my brush with the marque but...... back around 1966 when we bought our six acres first thing we did was plant some trees.
There was no city water connected in the area but we did have a dam at the bottom of the property so........ I bought a paddock basher Vanguard, same style as the one Mark has acquired.

We put a 44gal drum in the boot...... bucketed water from the dam into the drum and drove around the paddock to water the trees.
Later the Vanguard got parked under a tree.....kids (not mine they swear) gradually dismantled it and finally it became a launching pad for a “flying fox” that ran from the tree behind it to the clump of wattle trees in front of it, hence the dint in the roof.... those were the days when kids were easy to amuse
The scrap metal man took it and three other paddock bashers away about five years ago




On a brighter note..... receipts that came with my “Newcastle” 'van show she was towed by a Vanguard (station wagon I believe).....some photos might come my way hopefully.
Get a go at the camping fees with power



Cobber.

[Deleted]

John Says:

YES!!!
Other pommie tow cars! For a while there I thought I was the only one!
Haven't got any photo's as I suffer from my dads disease, "I don't need any photo's, I can walk out to the shed if I want to look at it"..............
In any case, I have a 1968 series Va Humber Super Snipe. ( A lot like the one that Reddo tried to burn down his garage with a few years ago...)
The car was bought new in '68 by my Grandparents to replace the FJ Holden that they gave my uncle (he still has it)
Off on a bit of a tangent here... the FJ replaced a 1925 Dodge Tourer.
My Gradparents went to the country in the early 60's to visit relatives for the weekend and came home to my dad who was 17 at the time and his newly acquired 1925 Dodge tourer (he still has it...) and a broken shed beam from where Dad took the engine out and didn't prop the wooden beam and broke it in half.
The FJ had to sit outside for a few months until the new double carport was finished!
Anyway, Dad did his apprenticeship through Neals Motors in Sth Melbourne. Neals was the Rootes Group agent and when it came time for Grandad to buy a new car it came down to the Humber (built by Chrysler at this time....) or the Holden Brougham.
Not sure why, but he chose the Humber.
I'm in the process at the moment of not restoring but doing some serious maintenance on the car. ie: new front end, new diff etc (It sat for over 10yrs without being moved, however Grandma paid the rego and the insurance on it every year!)
I'm hoping that it'll be done in the next few months but ya never know with these things.
Anyway, its nice to have you on board Mark!
Regards,
John




Hey John ..........good to hear from you ..........don't get tooo excited mate , .........I'm a Holden man thru and thru .......just having bit of a play with the the ol' Vanguard out of curiousity ;D
Interesting story you tell ......you say your grandparents made a choice between these two:









Its an unusal choice for back in 68, ...... I thought most would have made a choice between the Brougham and the Fairlane
Some pics of your Humber project would be good .......

Shane ......yes, mine is a 1951 model, not sold until 1952 ........I'm guessing it was fully imported

Cobber ........when I've finished with the Phase 1 .......I'll postpak it, and send it to you ..........you'll have yourself a new paddock basher ;D ;D !!

Mark

[Deleted]

and some more stuff that came with the ol' pommy tow car


copy of the original insurance policy: ......geez car insurance was expensive back then at 19 pounds, 14 shillings & 2 pence








instruction book:












a coupla fliers !








a 1949 brochure




this pic didn't come with it ;D





Mark

[noblesgarage]

What this Mr T you turning Whitworth or something Gave all my old spanners away years ago having enough trouble keeping up with AF never mind this metric stuff and here's you going POMMY on us Ah well spose you.SE got to play with with something while waiting for the next MAJOR V V FIND TO COME ALONG ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Lets face it those easterners seem to smelling out all the good stuff lately