Vintage Caravan Wheels

[cobber]

Hey kaybee.... I've got a project for you

As you know......... I know nothing about wheels ..... and here I was thinking what a good idea it would be to start a thread about........ wheels.
You know..... PCD, offsets, what wheel came off what car when, and what car had wheels that would be interchangeable. All about the size of stud holes and hub holes, width and diameter of rims and all that stuff.
Not up my alley I thought to myself BUT....... KAYBEE ! ..... just the man for the job

So how about it Col ..... save people asking the same questions over and over again.

Cobber.

Go to HERE[/url] to see how to easily calculate the PCD of any 3, 4, 5, or 6 stud wheel pattern.


An even easier way to work out PCD is [/a] HERE.

Reddo posted the following link at a later date.... I hope he doesn't mind me puting it here

Hi All
Found this info elsewhere on another forum.
Some useful stuff here when converting old imperial tyre info to modern day metric tyre info..Rolling diameters etc..

www.carbibles.com/tyre_size_calculators.html

Regards
Reddo

[kaybee]

Oct 30, 2011 8:03:03 GMT 10 cobber said:

Hey kaybee.... I've got a project for you

As you know......... I know nothing about wheels ..... and here I was thinking what a good idea it would be to start a thread about........ wheels.
You know..... PCD, offsets, what wheel came off what car when, and what car had wheels that would be interchangeable. All about the size of stud holes and hub holes, width and diameter of rims and all that stuff.
Not up my alley I thought to myself BUT....... KAYBEE ! ..... just the man for the job

So how about it Col ..... save people asking the same questions over and over again.

Cobber.

G'day Sir Robert, that's a pretty good idea but most likely should be in a dedicated thread of it's own instead of rattling around in this "where is it" one......so perhaps if a mod. can move your initial idea and post to somewhere else ,we can git into it ;D......and PS to Rodnet, Commodore studs have a metric spacing that is different to Chev/HQ on/Jag ,so if you mix 'em up you'll end up with broken studs, cheers, Col.

[cobber]

Thanks Kaybee and Conti..... a dedicated thread on the subject is what I had in mind

It was prompted by the business about that wheel I gave to Franklin1 for his Newcastle van thinking it was an FJ Holden one.
Al noticed the stud holes on the wheel were larger on the wheel I gave him than those on the FJ wheels he had..... NOT GOOD

Kaybee then informed us that the stud holes and the nuts on an FX wheel are different to those on an FJ.

G'day Al,
the wheel with the big hole is a off an earlier model 48-215 or FX....they use a wider nut with a different taper ,so no you can't mix n'match. You'll have to chase up the right nuts ,from memory they have a 7/8" hex , the regular small ones are 3/4" hex. If you used the smaller nuts they will bottom out on the thread before they pull up tight on the wheel....happy huntin', Col.

So it boils down to the fact that if you use an FX wheel you must use FX nuts.

Would it be correct to say Col that you can get away with using FJ nuts with an FX wheel ? correction FX NUTS ON FJ WHEEL

The two wheels in question.
FX on the left.


This site says the PCD for both FX & FJ is 6.375 inches

Cobber.

[Franklin1]

G'day cobber,

Would it be correct to say Col that you can get away with using FJ nuts with an FX wheel ?

Did you mean to ask the question the other way round??

Using smaller FJ wheel nuts on the larger FX wheel holes is the problem, as I understand it.

cheers,
Al. (a know-nothing car owner )

[kaybee]

Hiya Cobber, no ....it's important to use the right nuts for the wheels. To back up a little for the benefit of anyone who is wondering what this is all about, early Holden wheels like the two that Cobber pictured can have two distinctly different tapers where the nuts seat.....the first of the series from '48-'53 used a wide shallow taper on a nut that is a 7/8" hex ,it's matched to a wheel with the same wide shallow taper. Then they changed the seat size and angle of the taper for the FJ series and used a corresponding 3/4" hex nut with a steeper taper(45 degree's from memory ). The problem is that to the casual observer the 2 wheels look pretty much alike and no-one really takes much notice of things like odd shaped tapers and mixed up nut sizes , leading to things getting fairly well mismatched over the years. If the tapers and nuts don't match on your van , then at some point you'll either lose the wheel or at best,trash the center when it starts moving around on the threads. The purpose of the tapered section is to center the wheel on the studs and provide a large load bearing area to carry the applied loading . If you use the deeper tapered nut on a shallow tapered wheel,it'll drop deep into the wheel and only have a narrow contact point on the wheel ( or if the wheel is a bit worn from lots of repeated tighten/loosen operations it might bottom out on the stud before it bears up against the wheel)......and the opposite holds true if you do it the other way,the wide flat nut will pick up on a sharp contact line at the top of the taper, it won't center on the stud properly and that narrow contact line isn't enough to carry the loading of the van ( or car)....and once again,the wheel comes off .
So.....have a real good look at your wheel nuts if you've got FX-FJ wheels....if the nuts look like they've disappeared into the wheel and you can't see the edge of the tapered area on the nut, you've got the wrong nuts. If you've got the 7/8 nuts and you can't see the very top of the tapered area on the wheel between the flats of the nuts , you've still got the wrong nuts.

Fortunately they stopped doing potentially hazardous stuff like this for a while and settled down to using the same 3/4 " hex nut and 45 degree taper from the FE thru to the end of HK series......but then they did it again for the HT onwards, only this time they used the same hex nut with an even steeper taper ( I think 60 degree's) from then on until they went metric ( and I can't help you with modern junk,so you're on your own there ;D)......this mismatch of nuts is more likely to impact on folks here due to the greater numbers of older vans that run Holden wheels up to the HQ era.......so the same advice applies to a certain extent, if the nut looks like it's burrowing down into the wheel , it's probably the steep tapered nut in the shallow wheel ( and if you just lob into a parts shop and ask for some Holden wheelnuts ,the later 60 degree nuts are what you'll get, so it's pretty common to find this problem)......and if you have the earlier shallow nuts on HT/G/Q wheels the will ride high up on the outside of the taper and look a bit like they're not done up......so check all your nuts, if you're not sure or a bit suspicious,pull the nut off and have a look at the contact line on the nut and seat.....if they don't match each other in approximate width, they are mismatched and should be replaced with the correct nuts. Easier to do it now at home than on the side of the road in the middle of nowhere......

[chev51]

I learnt about the taper on the late nuts the hard way, I ran 54 chev wheels on my boat trailer. Did the right thing with a new hub from repco complete with nuts. Tightened it up before we left, about an hour later still with the wheel brace still sitting in the boat after checking it earlier, I got passed by my wheel... not a good feeling

After col told me I pulled my nuts off and looked, they don't seat on the rim even though they are tight .

[kaybee]

Oct 31, 2011 7:53:54 GMT 10 @olfarts said:

HT HG and HK Holden rims were very popular rim's with 70s vans.5 stud Volvo rims are the same off set and stud pattern,except there are no lugs for hubcaps.


Ford,Valiant (1971 up wards) 5 stud Toyota rims are the same.And by memory P76 rims are the same.


Dave

G'day all, for todays instalment ...more on the Holdens ;D....as OlDave stated, there's a good few vans around with HK/T/G wheels on them and most folks lump them in the" all the same" basket.....but they are not! Bolt pattern is the same , but again there was a change in wheels to use a nut with a different taper starting with the HT, and the offsets on the standard width rims are different too. So if you have the HK/T/G wheels and are thinking to yourself "well how the heck am I supposed to know which is which?"-it's easy,HK is the 14"wheel that has a series of paired slots cut around the outside of the wheel center,just above where the cap fits. This wheel uses the shallow nuts same as FE onwards , the HT & HG wheel uses the newer deep tapered nut that ran from then up until the end of the real Holdens in WB series ( on the steel wheels,not the factory mags.....which you wouldn't be using on your nice vintage van, would you? )......so watch out for this nut mismatch on pretty much all old Holden wheels.
It's also worth pointing out that all the Holdens from FE to HG shared the same bolt pattern , so you can swap them around a fair bit to achieve height changes or access to a different range of tyres,13" or 14".....but.....there's still something else to watch out for- in the HD and HR range they changed the pressing of the wheel center to clear the wider drums/discs.....readily identifiable if you have the 2 types of wheels side by side as the HD/R wheels are a deeper pressing under the wheelcap where the wheel seats on the hub. The late wheels will fit without issue all the way back to FE ,but if you put FE-EH wheels on your HD/R drums they'll distort the drums and the brakes will pulsate or even lock on, and since there's a fair chance some of our old vans will have HD/R drums on them , make sure you've got the right wheels especially for the spare. It'd be a pain in the bot if you found your spare that everyone told you would fit 'coz all Holden wheels were the same ....didn't.... , so check it out before you disappear into the wilderness on your next trip away.
LC/LJ 6 cyl Torana also share this bolt pattern too , but wheel offsets are all over the place compared to the regular Holdens....handy sometimes if you have clearance issues.

...and the Volvo rims?.....some of them do have the Holden bolt pattern, but they are so utterly horrible looking that I'm sure no-one would want them on their old 'van ;D

In the later HQ thru to WB series the stud pattern was changed to that of the Chev cars ( Chev from '49 up that is) and still with the 7/16 UNF stud size that Holden have always used , so the odd nut thing still applies. This same bolt pattern in shared with Jag and also Vanguard , but with larger 1/2" stud sizes , so you could use HQ wheels on your Vanguard wheeled old caravan if you wanted to , as long as you sorted out the taper/nut problem....and it's also worth pointing out that the big hole in the middle where the hub protrudes can be quite different between models too , so check things out before you shell out for the next set of neat wheels you see on Ebay.....

Chev wheels prior to '49 were 6 stud ( that started around '37 from memory) and there are a heap of older vans that run these 6 stud wheels. The bolt pattern on these is shared by some of the Japanese light commercials , which can be useful if you're picking up an old van with trashed tyres and don't feel like shelling out the national debt for some new 16"s. Hilux is one of the models,I'm not sure quite how many others are the same but I'm sure your local tyre shop will tell you if you ask politely ;D.....

Might be time for the Ford wheels next ,cheers, Col.

[cobber]

G'day Col,

Thanks for all of that..... before you go onto Ford stuff........... Chevy wheels are often mentioned by people who pick up older caravans and you have been know to identify them by saying they are “Chev pattern” wheels and then go on to say they are possible “after market” wheels

Can you tell us what the PCD is of the earlier (37/48) Chev wheels.... and which of these wheels below (if any) are dinky- di Chev wheels ?
Hub caps for these Chev pattern wheels is another issue I have never been able to figure out.

These were on humpty's Janorma...... (love that caravan)





And this one was on the Don I have......And even though I don't know much about wheels I didn't think it was much good



So Ken Koala gave me a pair of these to replace them .



HOW MANY DIFFERENT CHEV LOOK ALIKE WHEELS ARE THERE ?

Are any of the above fair dinkum Chev wheels ?

Cobber.

[kaybee]

Nov 1, 2011 19:46:47 GMT 10 @rodnet said:

My opinion ??
Top three and not the last. Opinion only, so dont slap me if I am wrong
Rod

...nup, wouldn't do that..... ;D...the first two are aftermarket types , meaning supplied to the trade by companies like Hendersons,Austral,Ajax and a few others that used to be around when we made stuff here .....

...the 3rd one is the gennie Chev wheel ,the last one from K.Ken is a Pontiac

Cobber, I don't have the PCD for the 6 stud Chev pattern at hand but I can measure a hub tomorrow if you like. The whole aftermarket wheel thing is a bit of a grey area, there seems to be lots of different styles and bolt patterns used , so maybe if people have unusual wheels they can't identify and they can post a photo of them here , perhaps then we can figure something out as we go?.....

[scarlettsloft]

Hi
We are just wondering if anyone can identify this wheel and hubcap from our Atlantic caravan. Its a 4 stud, 15inch wheel.

Cheers.

[scarlettsloft]

Thanks for a quick reply, much appreciated:)

[carapark]

Gday all, HELP with my wheels would be appreciated, the size has scrubbed or perished off.

I don't have a spare either

Maybe the hubcap will help with ID

Thanks, Gary

[carapark]

Here is the wheel

[kaybee]

Hiya,I don't know what that one is and it's pretty hard to guage sizes from photos.....might simply be something supplied to the van manufacturer's specs, the hubcap looks to be a plain aftermarket type......if you pull the wheel off you might find the inside is in better condition and might still have the size on it. Otherwise just take the wheels to your local tyre guy and he'll figure it out for you,cheers, Col.

[cobber]

G'day Gary how's things?

Now......I know nothing about wheels but Col can tell us if I say something wrong.
Can't Gary just measure the diameter of the wheel where the bead of the tyre sits in the wheel, and that doesn't include the outside rim of the wheel ?

Coincidence.....I took a photo of the wheel on Marks Janaway II yesterday arvo to post and ask the same question..... what is it off..... or what else will fit ?
Mark's going to need a spare if he is going to drag it back to WA.


It is 16'' but has three round buttons to hold the hub cap, its PCD is 5.9'' .... does that sound right ? I worked that out from the clues on this pommy site




Cobber.

[kaybee]

Nov 2, 2011 16:27:40 GMT 10 cobber said:

G'day Gary how's things?

Now......I know nothing about wheels but Col can tell us if I say something wrong.
Can't Gary just measure the diameter of the wheel where the bead of the tyre sits in the wheel, and that doesn't include the outside rim of the wheel ?

Coincidence.....I took a photo of the wheel on Marks Janaway II yesterday arvo to post and ask the same question..... what is it off..... or what else will fit ?
Mark's going to need a spare if he is going to drag it back to WA.


It is 16'' but has three round buttons to hold the hub cap, its PCD is 5.9'' .... does that sound right ? I worked that out from the clues on this pommy site



Cobber.

G'day Cobber ,yes you can measure the dia. of the rim from the first step on the rim where the tyre seats , but I'd guess there's a lot of people who might not know how deep the tyre sits into the rim ( why I didn't suggest it) and as the wheels are going to end up at the tyre service anyway , figured perhaps it's best left to them to deal with it. Easiest way to do it is with a steel rule laid across the rim , you're measuring the distance across the center between the base of the flanges of the rim , not the overall diameter,you can allow about 3/32" on each side for the thickness of the wheel material if you want to get technical ;D.... and that'll show you the rim dia.

As for the PCD, easiest way is with a pair of dividers, flip the grease cap off,measure squarely( not on an angle) from the center of the stub axle to the center of the stud,double it and you've got the PCD.....

.... if Mark's planning on dragging a van across to WA with hard to find tyres, get 2 spares.....

I don't know about that 5.9 PCD, more common is the 5 1/2 pcd ,that's early Ford from A model thru to '35, then '40 thru '48 and all their light trucks in the same years including F100's, Jeep from '42 up,Suzuki, Inter Scout and a few other orphans makes......hope this helps.....cheers.....

[cobber]

OK, did like you said Col.... pulled the cap off, good thing I did too because she's bone dry, no grease in it at all.
The PCD works out at 6'' pretty much the same as 5.9'' aye?

Now........ if I go scrounging around the wreckers it will be better if I measure the distance between two adjacent stud holes and look for 16'' wheels that have the same measurement...... right?

Any suggestions as to what wheels I should be asking for ?

Cobber.

[carapark]

Thanks Cobber and kaybee, I have measured the PCD at 6 inches

I took a template of the wheel studs before towing the van to a chap to have it tidied up a bit, so I can't measure the wheel diameter till I can get back there and pull a wheel off

It looks a lot like the wheel pic you just put up Cobber, I tried a 48 215 hubcap on the wheel but it, the cap, was too small

If the wheels are the same Cobber I would like to know the results of your search for either a spare or more easily found replacements

Regards, Gary

[cobber]

About that 16'' by 5 x 6'' PCD wheel

I've been searching the internet and found this site that has a fantastic wheel fitment guide...... only problem it doesn't go back to the era we are interested in..... <1970.
Does anybody know of a site like this one that goes back to pre 1970 cars

The only vehicle shown on this list with a 5 x 152.4 mm (6'') PCD (how's that for tech talk eh? ) is the Opel Bedford CF 230/250

Wheel fitments guide & PCD

www.carlsalter.com/wheel_fitments.html

Do like they say in the second paragraph.... hit ctrl. f and type in the box what it is you want to find

Cobber.

[cobber]

Might be time for the Ford wheels next ,cheers, Col.

ARE YOU THERE COL

Fords mate..... do they also have the same crazy set up as Holdens when it comes to using different nuts for what looks like the same stud pattern ..... and what else

Cobber.

[kaybee]

Nov 20, 2011 17:58:38 GMT 10 cobber said:

Might be time for the Ford wheels next ,cheers, Col.

ARE YOU THERE COL

Fords mate..... do they also have the same crazy set up as Holdens when it comes to using different nuts for what looks like the same stud pattern ..... and what else

Cobber.

...yep...I'm here ,but I'm going out again...... ;D....I'll get into it properly this week,howzat?......but no,Ford wheel nuts are the same ones they used in 1932,in fact the "B" prefix part number from 1932 is still current.... .... cheers, Col

[Don Ricardo]

Hi all wheelnuts, ;D ;D ;D

I've been looking forward to say that!

Ahem, evening all.

I've got a question for all of you 'wheely' knowledgeable types, but before asking, I need to say that I've carefully read Kaybee's posts - several times - and have tried to absorb all that information re tapers, offsets, PCD's, etc. I'm still pretty confused though... Why on earth did Holden decide to make things so complicated?

OK, here's the beginning of my question...

Back in the day when Dona Ricardo and I started taking the Don out for a run we had to fit electric brakes, and we were told at the time that we needed to fit a new axle and hubs, and that our only choice was to ditch the original 16" wheels and hubs and fit a new axle and hubs. Yes, yes, I know - sacrilege. Yep, I know we had other options - could have had hubs made to fit the 16's. But we didn't know that then, did we!

Anyway, the advice was to fit 14" HQ wheels and hubs, so that we could then use the spare from our VC Commodore as a spare for the van. Pretty neat, eh? Yes, well from what Kaybee has said, I'm bit uncertain if that was correct, but that's what we did.

And since then we've continued to run the 14" HQ wheels, and used the spare from our VL Commodore, Toyota Cressida, VX Commodore and FG Falcon as the spare for our van... What do you mean, the wheels from those cars wouldn't have fitted the van?? Nobody told us that! (Well, actually they did, but that tells you that we've been very fortunate and have never needed a spare for the van - tow car yes, van no. )

That's the background, and this is one of the wheels from the van:



My question for Kaybee or other people who know their wheels is: Can you confirm that this is an HQ wheel?

Or do you need to see one of the nuts off to check out the taper, camber, depth, or whatever to be able to tell?

Your expert opinion would be valued. I actually want to get myself a spare! (Yes, I know I've talked about that before as well, but this time I really mean it...truly... )

Don Ricardo

[kaybee]

G'day Richard ,yes you have an HQ -WB wheel , the Commodore wheels are a Metric spacing that is not quite the same as HQ....but a lot of people believe they are and run them. This can cause the studs to fail ( although I've never seen it ,but it's apparently well documented).....and the other issue is the Commo wheels have a totally different offset ,so it's likely that if you did need to use one on the van ,it'd probably foul on the inside of the wheel tub area. HQ wheels aren't that hard to find , so it'd be worthwhile getting one specifically for the van. Using the car spare sounds like a good plan, but if you think about having just the one spare between the 2 vehicles.....then if you need to use the spare,you're left with nothing for either . Can mean a long walk if you get another flat......

[kaybee]

G'day , here's a little bit on Ford wheels as they relate to older vans.....it's unlikely anyone except Firefighter is going to need to know anything as far back as T Model ....so we'll start with A Model Ford in 1928 ,these are a wire wheel with a PCD of 5 1/2" , and there are 2 diameters...21" and 19" for the "Improved A"in '30/1.....they use a domed 1/2" UNF nut.....

Next up is 1932 Ford ,they are 18" wires with the same 5 1/2" PCD ,but used a regular 1/2" tapered seat nut , and then they used the same nut on all steel wheels from then onwards, right thru the 40's, 50's 60's and 70's ( on all full size Ford's...( Ford Anglia's and Prefects are smaller threads).....

.....for 1933 and 34 Ford still had wire wheels but in 17" Dia.

.....in 1935 they reduced the diameter to 16",still with the 5 1/2" PCD.

.....1936 saw the introduction of the steel "artillery wheel" with a large PCD around 11" ( have to measure it and confirm size). This wheel stayed in use until the end of the 1939 production run but was also used in the post war Pilot series and 3/4 ton Ford pickups until some time in the Jailbar run, hard to find out exactly when they stopped using them in the 3/4 tonners.

For 1940 the wheel design changed again and went back to the 5 1/2" PCD , in 16 " diameter. The same wheel was used right through until the end of the '48 cars. Mercury for 1946/7/8 used the same look wheels but in 15"......

....to be cont'd.....

[kaybee]

OK,here's the cont'd part ;D

...in 1948 Ford changed to a 4 1'2" PCD , this same size wheel pattern has been used from then on which means you can mix and match lots of Ford wheels from '49 onwards....but you do have to watch out for differences in the size of the hole for the hub......the small center hole ran from '49 until the end of the XAFalcon and equivalent Fairlane , then they upped the size of the hole for XB and onwards. This shouldn't be a problem with old vans unless something has been altered to use modern hubs.

So, all local big Fords used the same bolt pattern , from the Spinner series ,through the Customline range ( both in 15" and 16"), into the Fairlane range and also the Compact Fairlane ( 14") and the Galaxy range. When the early Falcons hit the scene they had 13" 4 stud wheels on the cars and 13" 5 stud wheels on the vans and utes, obviously the 4 stud wheels are different to the full size Ford wheels but the 5 stud Falcons are the same bolt pattern at 4 1'2"pcd. In the XR series Falcon they went to the regular bolt pattern on all wheels but in 14".....

...more soon.....