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Post by Franklin1 on Jul 16, 2010 18:29:43 GMT 10
G'day All,
I'm not a car enthusiast, so I'm not real savvy about automotive stuff. I was reading the latest NRMA magazine today, and in particular an article about the phasing out of unleaded petrol from July 1 next year. (Is it just in NSW or all of OZ?)
Anyhoo, in the article it talks about cars being able/unable to use ethanol (E10) petrol. It makes the point that none of the Mazdas built before 2005 can accept ethanol blend fuels. That caught my attention because I wasn't aware of that, and my 2004 Mazda Tribute has often been filled up with the E10 fuel over the last 18 months or so. I've never noticed anything unusual when driving, but a check of the Mazda website shows I may have been causing quite a bit of damage to the fuel system.
How many other owners of cars may have been doing the 'wrong thing' like me?
And what about if you are looking at buying a second-hand car, how do you tell if it's been using E10 when it shouldn't have been?
The NRMA story was a real eye-opener for me, so I'll be driving past the E10 pump from now on.
Al.
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DND380
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Posts: 66
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Post by DND380 on Jul 16, 2010 20:26:47 GMT 10
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Post by Franklin1 on Jul 16, 2010 21:24:01 GMT 10
Well, there you go DND380. Not sure who to believe now. The Mazda website says only Tributes from April 2006 are compatible... Mazda compatibility listFor me as a "know nothing" person when it comes to cars, better I should avoid the E10 just in case. Heaven help all those others out there who don't know much, and who are soon to lose the ulp option. cheers, Al.
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Post by kaybee on Jul 16, 2010 22:25:23 GMT 10
The following is my opinion only, I would not put E10 in any car. By mistake once, I put some in our 2002 Subaru. Ran like sht. Never again. E10 lacks the octane to perform efficiently, less miles to the gallon, therefore more expensive to go from A to B.. Very noticeablly gutless. Trying to pull the wool over our eyes as Al has just found out. Some areas are trying to phase out ULP altogether. So IMHO ,it is neither efficient, good for your car or good for the enviroment. I could rant on about threatening our old car (and VV) hobby but this is not really the forum for it. Sorry for my bad spelling. Rod ....yep...it's rubbish.....also has been known to affect the rubber based components in the fuel systems of older cars , such as fuel pump diaphragm's ,supply hoses, the rubber tipped needle and seat in the carby and even the nylon type fuel filters. You don't need a vivid imagination to understand what can happen when these items fail and fuel goes where it shouldn't. It also has a very short life in the tank , so it's not so good for a car that might be laid up over winter or of limited use. Try to avoid it when you can, but it's not always clearly indentified.....I copped a load of it in Katoomba last year ....the car was pinging like mad about a kilometre after filling the tank , had to switch back to LPG and drain the tank once back in Melb. Also recently had the fuel "go off" after sitting for about a month in a car that was not being used. Same deal,had to drain the tank and then refuel with fresh stuff, and then away it went.
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DND380
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Post by DND380 on Jul 16, 2010 22:39:42 GMT 10
Bring on E85...
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Post by humpyboy on Jul 16, 2010 22:43:08 GMT 10
I believe that those in power are trying to get all the older cars off the road ie: make a new fuel no one can use and make em all buy a new car, either that or they are not making enough money out of the standard unleaded, then maybe it's just a double edged sword, bottem line I don't trust the B*****D's, they're not doing any of us a favour.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2010 7:28:04 GMT 10
There is a bloke that runs a jet ski hire business on the Central Coast of NSW - Hawksbury river. When E10 first hit the pumps he placed stickers near the fuel caps on all the skis "üse ULP - NO E10." He recognised very early that the ski motors have nylon fuel system components and the ethanol attacks nylon . Within 2 weeks he had 3 melted ski motors on his bench. Seems the hirers would use up the tank of fuel supplied and then shoot down to the servo and fill up a drum of the cheapest stuff they could get... E10. Fill up the jet ski tank.. hold her flat out and roar off down the river.. as the jets in the carb go gooey the jet size diminishes.. the motor runs lean.. and leaner.. eventually overheating and melting the internals... I had an old Norton Atlas that was set up as a cafe racer... it had a fibreglass ( oooo theres that word ) tank.. I mistakenly filled up with ethanol.. thought it would be OK. Rode the bike all day. Stopped at a pub for a beer.. ( as you do) . While standing around talking to the mates i noticed a "fuel curtain"evapourating up the side of the tank. Closer inspection showed that the ethanol had attacked the join between the top of the tank and its base. The fuel was soaking through the paint and once it reached the outside of the tank it was evaporating upwards. By the time i got home the paint had blistered completely around the base of the tank. Luckily the good old amal carbs have brass jets and brass needle and seats.. Wife filled her 1988 celica up with E10.. drove about 5ks and the motor started to loss power. By the time she made it home she had overheated the mootor to a point where the top radiator hose had split and the bakelite covers on the spark plug leads had cracked causing the spark to short to the head on all 4 plugs. Took a while to diagnose the problem.. I was blaming the overheating on the split hose.....all came clear once she told me about the E10 fill up. Drained the tank. replaced the plug lead caps.. and the blown radiator hose. Took a couple of tanks of Premium ULP to get it back to good health. E10... cant use it in an older car...goes stale if not used for a while... cant drink it... What the bloody hell is it good for Reddo
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Post by kaybee on Jul 17, 2010 7:43:59 GMT 10
.....it's not good for much Reddo , the junk I drained out wasn't even good enough to kill weeds around the back of the shed......all it did was stink a bit....... ;D ;D
I tend to agree that they (scumbag pollies) are surreptitiously trying to get rid of older cars, not necessarily the type we favour , more the 10 + year old late models still in use. That the whole scheme is backed by the new car manufacturers ,along with the oil companies and the various company directors who generally are the same pollies we all respect so much , seems in little doubt. I guess we are just caught up in their little scheme , much as we were when they forced the last great fuel scam on everyone. Remember how unleaded was going to save the world,clean up the environment , disperse the photo-chemical smog, make our kids smarter ,etc,etc....did it do anything?....if it did,apart from trading the relatively benign tetraethyl lead for a number of toxic compounds like Benzine (known carcinogen)and Xylene ( nerve gas) plus a few others,why do we need Ethanol?......and what negative impact are they neglecting to mention this time ?......
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Post by cobber on Jul 17, 2010 9:03:05 GMT 10
And wot's more..... it causes vapour lock. Old cars pulling caravans do tend to get hot and because the vapour pressure of fuels containing ethanol will be greater the probability of vapour lock and hot restarting problems will be greater And wot's more... old cars often have steel fuel lines.... and ethanol has an affinity to water and will rust the fuel lines. (I read all that here but.... I have experienced the vapour lock first hand ) Cobber.
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Post by Don Ricardo on Jul 17, 2010 17:05:28 GMT 10
Hi all, After some problems a while ago with glued up plugs, etc, in our '62 Mini, I talked to the Mini-specialist mechanic who services it (yeah, I know I should learn to look after it myself, but I'm in solidarity with Franklin1 ;D). He told me to (1) avoid standard unleaded petrol (91 RON) and stick to premium unleaded (95 or 98 RON), and (2) avoid Shell petrols of all ratings like the plague because they have ethanol and/or other additives in them which don't go down well with the Mini's engine. I've stuck to his advice, and it's been smooth running since. I note that the NRMA website says that although standard ULP is to be phased out, premium ULP will continue to be available...but for how long in its current form, I wonder? While I'm complaining about petrol, I might as well mention another gripe: Have you noticed that the price gap between ULP and PULP is widening? When unleaded petrol was introduced the gap was around 8 to 10 cents per litre. The gap is now commonly 15 to 18 cents per litre in Victoria. And have you noticed that when the price on ULP is reduced on the "cheap days of the week", it is rarely reduced on PULP? Funny about that! Apart from the Mini, my Commodore also requires PULP - about a tank a week - so I certainly notice it!! Don Ricardo
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Post by Geoff & Jude on Jul 17, 2010 17:13:52 GMT 10
avoid Shell petrols of all ratings like the plague because they have ethanol and/or other additives in them hi don filled the victoria with shell pulp once a couple of years ago. drove home and put it in the garage and the next time i filled up, about a month, the gasket on the fuel cap had melted away to nothing. i've never used shell since. geoff
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2010 20:49:31 GMT 10
As you all know i have old pommy motorbikes to keep me broke .. and .....occupied down the shed. I never really took much notice of just how "pissy" E10 was until i had that episode with the melting fuel tank. Out of curiosity i ran a full tank of E10 through a 1954 500cc ES2 norton.. These things have fairly low compression ( ES stands for Easy start ) and will run on camels wee.. or anything with an octane rating above about 2%.... .. if it can be squished and ignited the bike will run on it. .. the motors are a direct decendant of the old 16H side valve 500 that the Dr's used during the war and run on pool fuel. The first thing i noticed was the reluctance to start..... Yup.. i thought Joe Lucas.. Prince of darkness was the initial problem. But eventaully the bike started.. Once underway i noticed i had to crank the advance lever on further to get the same amount of low down lug up the first hill out oif town. By the time i reached the top of the hill i experienced another phenonomon .. Extreme heat on the inside of both Levi clad kness... hmm.. motor works harder to achieve same speed up hill. ..therefore generating more heat.... obviously runs less efficient than on the old Super or the later premium unleaded. point i am making is the same thing is happening under the bonnet of your car on every hill.. excecpt you dont feel it because ya havent got your knees wrapped around the power plant Thank christ a full tank of PULP fuel in any of our ( mine and trishas ) bikes costs less than $20.. a small price to pay when ya wanna get out there for a day and give the bike a bit of high spirited flogging... I think JBJ once said something like... fuel could top $5 a litre .. but if cars ( or bikes .. or anything that will propel you down the road at a pace that will put a smile on your dial) is your hobby then we will keep paying for it and enjoying our hobby.. I would second that..... but just dont sell us dishwater through the bowsers Bang ..crash..... nurse could you please help me up.. seems i just fell off my soapbox. Reddo
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Post by atouchofglass on Jul 18, 2010 7:09:02 GMT 10
avoid Shell petrols of all ratings like the plague because they have ethanol and/or other additives in them hi don filled the victoria with shell pulp once a couple of years ago. drove home and put it in the garage and the next time i filled up, about a month, the gasket on the fuel cap had melted away to nothing. i've never used shell since. geoff My dear ol dad always cursed Shell petrol Said it ran too hot He being involved with engines at the time should know...... Did I mention that this was in the 70's? Wonder what they were putting in it then? Atog
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DND380
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Post by DND380 on Jul 18, 2010 15:04:10 GMT 10
Been around for a while... AUSTRALIA— After several attempts in Victoria and elsewhere to start alcohol fuels plants (Fox, 1924), the Australian National Power Alcohol Company, built in 1927 in Sarina, Queensland, started with a capacity of two million gallons per year. The ethanol plant primarily used molasses, along with cassava (manioc) and sweet potatos grown in rotation with sugarcane. “Shellkol” fuel was marketed by Shell Oil Co. at 15%-35% concentrations. Power alcohol was mostly confined to Queensland, and the province required that all gasoline distributors purchase alcohol from the National Power Alcohol Distillers at 1.5% of their gasoline sales volume. Competition from gasoline suppliers led to the Motor Spirits Vendors Act of 1933, mandating that ethanol be blended with petrol. (Hixon, 1932)The blending program lasted through World War II, when ethanol was used in chemicals and plastics. (UN, 1954)
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Post by RollyDog on Jul 18, 2010 18:34:32 GMT 10
A few years ago I needed fuel in a hurry and the only premium was ethanol based. So filled up the Sunbeam Rapier Fastback and next day it coughed and spluttered. Let it sit for a bit and it was Ok for another 5 k. Looked in the tank and found paint flakes. Apparently alot of the older Rootes Group cars had painted tanks and the ethanol attacks very quickly. I had been using shell in the Hunter and Rapier but will go the extra K to get Caltex from now on. What about Shell diesel ? Rollydog
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Post by John and Lynne on Jul 18, 2010 19:11:42 GMT 10
Hi, everone, we put e10 in our xc falon once by mistake , we drove 100 meters and it stopped. Had to drain the tank ,and then put the 98 grade in , no trouble after that . Peter my mate who does a lot of dyno work says never to use e10 only use 98. The reason is that unleaded is to be phased out and that e10 was going to go into the 95 grade fuel and were doing to trial this out . We have a number of old cars and run on 98 with no trouble , happy motoring John
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Post by JBJ on Jul 18, 2010 20:01:15 GMT 10
Hi All,
Looks like no one has a good word for E10.
I generally run half premium half unleaded in the Valiant as it is a high compression 245 engine, & I try to say a few bucks by not running premium all the time.
On our Meandara tour a while back, I was caught at Goondiwndi with only E10 available, so thought, no hills around here so it should be OK.
We eventually made it to the next servo, burping & banging. As the crap worked thru the system it came good. I regularly mix 50% fuel, including Shell, & the Valiant runs OK. I guess we have to accept we have to spend more money running premium instead of lower octane when E10 is the only option.
Still better than throwing big bucks away to drive a jap crapper as your only car. My hot rod run premium only, & same with my Dodge.
I'm lucky, my pass on earth will probably end before we really cop the problems with desperate shortage of fuel.
Bury me in my big V8 cars please.
JBJ
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Post by griffin on Jul 18, 2010 20:06:14 GMT 10
Hi all My two bobs worth on E10 Like others I filled the Velox with it in error and it ran poorly to say the least. I was concerned and emailed Caltex for their opinion and the reply was that it should not be used in older cars for the various reasons already outlined, attacks rubber, plastic, retains water so I got rid of it as soon as I could. Recently made the same mistake with the Mazda 3 which is an earlier model than recommended to use E10 and it too has dogged it Having said that though I was talking to a fellow Vauxhall owner who has been running his three, a 1933, a 1950 and a 1964 on the stuff and swears by it, no problems. For me I'll just swear about it ;D and leave it to the new cars. For us older folks with foggy recall they don't make it easy though. My usual Caltex garage has E10, regular unleaded and premium unleaded and the pump for regular unleaded has a yellow handle. But garages that have converted to selling only E10 and Premium unleaded have the E10 pump with a yellow handle hello, give us a bit of a fighting chance George
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DND380
Junior Member
Posts: 66
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Post by DND380 on Jul 18, 2010 21:16:15 GMT 10
Is E10 really any cheaper? Will Ethanol blended fuels cost more than unblended petrol?Ethanol has a lower energy content than petrol, the 1998 Australian field trial by Apace Research observed a fuel consumption increase of up to 2.8% with E10. Because of this higher fuel consumption there are fewer kilometres per tank of fuel, so ethanol blended fuels will cost motorists more. The excise on ethanol is the same as that on petrol, however producers are able to claim back the tax paid on the additive. Therefore, consumers pay the tax at the pump, the government gives it back to ethanol producers and consumers are subsidising the industry to the tune of 3.8cpl for each litre of 10% ethanol blended fuel. Commonwealth Treasury estimates that a 10% ethanol blend without any government subsidy would increase fuel prices by 7.8cpl. Consumers will pay for ethanol blended fuel either through this current fuel tax rebate or through higher fuel prices.
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Post by RollyDog on Jul 21, 2010 22:19:54 GMT 10
The government has been manipulating the situation even more of late. Last year the local LP gas installer was running flat out as people changed to gas and now they have upped the ante on the pump price for that those that took the gamble are paying for it. We do tyres on a few taxis, 90 percent Falcons on gas and they are feeling the pinch so are converting to the Toyota Hybrids. While waiting at the airport last night I saw a multitude of them. Can't see any of those towing a vintage van though. Rollydog
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Post by Daggsey on Jul 27, 2010 11:38:31 GMT 10
Hi admin,
Whilst this topic does not specifically refer to vintage caravans, it is relative to vintage caravaning and older tow cars. Is there any chance this thread can be saved somewhere for future reference before it drops off the end of the "Whatever" section?
Daggsey
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Post by firefighter on Jul 27, 2010 15:35:02 GMT 10
Just for you Daggsey ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D cheers f/f ;D ;D ;D
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Post by Daggsey on Jul 27, 2010 21:03:20 GMT 10
Aw shucks f/f ......you're so obliging ;D ;D ;D Hey JBJ, I can say something good about E10.........it isn't available in WA (yet!) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D...(somebody might prove me wrong, but I haven't seen it over here). Ya can't go past BP Ultimate (98 RON) for economy & power........Effacy with it's fuel-injected 202 loves it........probably not required for a low compression grey motor. Just a pity about the disproportionate price in comparison to 91 octane. One concern I do have is the confusion I have observed where people think "Premium" fuels are the top of the wozzer......these are 95 RON, not 98. Daggsey
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Post by JBJ on Jul 27, 2010 22:14:26 GMT 10
HI daggsey,
I agree on your choice of the Ultimate fuel. I've never had a problem with it ( other than cost) & have run it happily in my high compression old engines.
I suppose you only get what you pay for hopefully.
JBJ
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Post by RollyDog on Jul 27, 2010 22:52:53 GMT 10
Daggsey
Do you have a "Gull" fuel in WA. (Think that is what it's called.)
When I was in New Zealand in 2005 they were talking about it and all the old cars went to one or two servos that had it in Hamilton. I checked when I got back and it was available in South Australia and West Australia but I haven't heard much since.
Rollydog
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