240/12 volt

[neilncheryl]

Just want to run an idea by you all.
I want to put a 12 volt battery, smart charger & circuit breaker in my van but the battery won't fit anywhere inside & the smart charger & circuit breaker can't be hidden without running a mile of cable.
My plan now is to build a water proof ventilated box which will be carried in the back of the car & put underneath the van when on site.
In the box will be the battery, smart charger & circuit breaker.
The power lead will come from the powered site pole to the box, then a lead from the box to the van (via circuit breaker) and I would have another 240v point from the box so I could run a lead to the annex and 12v to run interior lights.
Advantage would be that I can use it from van to van so I would only buy the items once instead of for each van and I haven't used up the limited space in the van.
I have ideas but I am no electrician so does anyone know if this would not work either practically or legally?
Thanks
Neil

[tonyh]

Hi Neil, ;D
I am in you region and could probably help with both your 240/12 and jockey wheel issues as I have been there done that on mine. Send me a PM then I will send my details and I could come over and put you on the right track. ;D
Cheers, TonyH

[neilncheryl]

Thanks Tony - I have sent you a PM

[Roehm3108]

Hi Neil
Don't know anything about whether what you are thinking of is legal or not. You would need to get advice about that. These days however, caravans should have safety switches (similar to those in houses), but double poled, rather than circuit breakers. My understanding is that circuit breakers don't overcome the polarity problem. Power points too should be double poled, and not the domestic type.

Have just installed a similar setup in the Propert, but in one of the storage cabinets (not portable).

Ray

[Franklin1]

Ray,
Camec have this item in their catalogue...

240 VOLT CIRCUIT BREAKERS
16 amp. Double pole. Complete with cover.
[item no.] 3053-001

3053-050 With earth leakage

Replacement part
3053-001-02 Cover

Would this do the job properly?

Al.

[I'm updating this reply with additional information from the caravansplus website:
All recreational vehicles are required, by LAW, to be fitted with DOUBLE POLE power switches. These have the added safety advantage that both the active and neutral wires are disconnected when the switch is turned off. For your own safety, and others, do not place normal switches in your RV. ]

[Roehm3108]

Yes Al, that's the item. I was under the impression they were called safety switches like the house type, but as you pointed out, they must by law be double poled for safety.

Ray

[tonyh]

Hi Guys,
I have seen a dual raised double pole power point in a van with a earth leakage reset on the side of the raised base - anyone know if this is a special or std item. I have checked a few electrical outlets with no luck.
tonyh

[Roehm3108]

Dunno about that one. Bought one recently and it doens't have such a reset. Maybe they are an added extra???
Ray

[Franklin1]

Hi tonyh,
From what I can find on the internet, Clipsal have a double outlet power point with double pole switches and a residual current device (rcd) included, but the rcd reset/test buttons are on the face of the switch in between the two 3-pin sockets. The switch is called a "Lifesaver Safety Switch" and the catalogue item is 2025rcd30. The Clipsal website is pretty weird to use, and doesn't have a photo of the power point, however you can download the installation instructions (which show a drawing of the power point) from this link...

www.clipsal.com/trade/__data/page/81/W688.pdf

If you are on dial-up internet I wouldn't bother...the file is 8 pages long (230kb). Maybe just take the catalogue details and show them to your electrical retailer and see if they have a photo to show you.

cheers,
Al

[tonyh]

Thanks Al,
That one is different to the one I saw but it is probably the updated model with extra and better features. It looks perfect. You have done very well - considering the parts guys couldn't find it - go to the top of the class. I am on ADSL so loading was OK.
Cheers, tonyh

[neilncheryl]

Thanks for all your input Tony, Ray & Al - much appreciated
I'll come back with the names & models of parts that I was thinking of using and how I propose to hook it up to see what you all think
Neil

[whippy]

Thanks for starting this thread, I wasn't aware of difference in electrical switching for rec vehicles. The Palace appears to have ordinary house hold switches, I will have to replace them.

[tonyh]

hey whippy, after franklin 1 gave us the thread to the clipsal catalogue I went through and pulled out all the double pole gear I could. If anyone wants a copy I can e mail it as it is a bit big to put on the site.
Neilncheryl I haven't forgotten you - I tried to ring you and missed you on both numbers and I will be away next week, so I will ring you when I get back - work does get in the way of VVing sometimes!!!

[Franklin1]

If anyone is interested in further exploring double-pole power points / light switches / circuit breakers, two websites I've found have prices against each item, so you can compare with any other quotes you receive...

1. Lloyds RVDirect on-line store, located in Fyshwick, Canberra...
www.allstores.com.au/?Nav=Pdt&category_id=4&sub_category_id=21&PageID=8&wp=8

2. Caravans Plus on-line warehouse (no store), located in Queanbeyan, NSW...
www.caravansplus.com.au/catalog/index.php?cPath=32_504&osCsid=66529a70384d1cda4af442db8a644b7e

Note the brandname of the item when you read the price. Some items are somewhat cheaper when you shift away from the Clipsal and HPM brands.

cheers,
Al.

[atouchofglass]

Greetings everyone
All the double pole power outlets/inlets can be bought through your local electrical wholesaler for much less than quoted on the estores.

As an example the double power outlet can be bought for 39.90 plus GST not 51 or good heavens 61 as quoted by the threads above.

Save up your needs and buy them all at once

You'll do much better

Atog

[shaneandsimoen]

Hello ,
I know that this has nothing to do with the origanal question, 240/12 volt, but with old caravans (40s and50s) powerpoints are they double pole, or how do I tell.

Shane and Simoen

[Franklin1]

Hi S&S,
According to the Clipsal website, they only released their double-pole range of switches in 2007, so we can only assume that they weren't a common item (or weren't available?) before a couple of years ago.

Therefore, we can also assume that power points and light switches in caravans built prior to, say, 2006 were single pole.

Even though I have included information (on Page1 of this thread) from the caravans plus website saying double-pole switches are required by law, I cannot find any information on the internet to verify this "law".

I think we need an electrical expert to tell us whether we should be doing anything about this "electrical requirement". Do we have such a member...?

cheers,
Al.

[Geoff & Jude]

hi al

double pole switches have been in vans since at least the late 80's - early 90's as compulsory items.

it's not necessary to retro fit them in restorations although from a safety point of view it is obviously a good idea.

fitting double poles to power points is no real problem because active and neutral goes to each power point.

on the other hand, fitting them to light switches means you need to re-run wiring to the switches, because the switch wire is usually a single wire.

this in itself presents significant problems (usually needing to remove either the inside or outside skin).

(adding a residual current detector (rcd) should overcome the need for double poles because the detector will shut down if there is any leakage across the circuit to neutral or earth.

see d/p switches at

www.busandmotorhome.com/Electrical%20240%20Volts.htm

www.around-oz.com/innovations_mh/cable_rules_collyn.htm

just my thoughts.

geoff 'n jude

[tinnie]

Hi,
I am by now means an electrician, but, my understanding is that RCDs only detect earth leakage, therefore do not protect against electrocution caused by bridging the neutral and active?
In that case a double pole switch or power point shuts off flow to both nuetral and active thus (theoretically) eliminating that risk also?

Or am I missing something about RCDs and/or double poles?


As for age of double poles, I have seen an old double pole power point that looked like bakelite or something similar, in any case it would have been late sixties at newest by the look of it.

Cheers,
Gristy

[smiles]

The main switch in our van is original bakelite 1950's double pole with a fuse on each of the active and neutral wires. The interesting thing about our electrical system is that all the lighting is only 12 volt. When the van is supplied with 240v power from the mains, a transformer changes the power from 240v into 12v alternating current. Transformers can only be used with ac.

The van has a battery box for when there is no 240v & the lights run just as well on 240v as on 12v ac. Each of the lights have their own 12v fuses. Inside the van there are 3 x 240v powerpoints, & the transformer is plugged into one of those. BUT, underneath the van, there are 2 other 240v plugs hooked up to the 12v battery system. I think because they didn't have 12v plugs in those days, someone dodged it up with 240v plugs with one being used to charge up the battery when the car was driving along, & the other plug was to run the outside annex light. I will replace them with 2-pin low voltage plugs which are easy to come by and cheap. Basically the 2 batteries (the car's & the van's) are hooked up in parallel, with appropriate fuses, so both are charged as the car is driving.

Of course not much good if you want to sit somewhere for a week, but then a little solar panel, hooked up to that outside plug would probably do the job.
Rob

[smiles]

And the other great thing about transformers is that they only cost about $10, unlike inverters which are expensive and don't change 240v into 12v. Inverters work the opposite way, changing 12 or 24v dc into 240v ac. Inverters are good if you want to run all your gadgets when you're away from the mains power in the bush, but transformers are good if you just want to run the lights & don't want 2 sets of lights. It was a far simpler world in the 1950's.
Rob