Viscount caravans - Fullarton SA, Cabramatta NSW & Dandenong

[Don Ricardo]

Hi all,

Following are some photos of a Victorian-built Viscount, serial number V692, which was apparently left abandoned at our local tennis club in February 2018. It is interesting for a couple of reasons. The first is that it seems to have features of both 1960 and 1962 Viscounts as they were advertised, in particular the rounded (rather than flattish) bulkhead over the front windows (1960) and the wide centre window at the front (1961). The second reason it is of interest is that it has wrap around rear windows which don't seem to have been introduced into NSW-built vans until 1962 or 1963. This van is another indication that the Adelaide, Victorian and NSW Viscount factories seem to have developed their styles and models semi-independently.

The van was gutted when seen. Twocutekelpies has this van listed as 1961 on her Viscount register.











Don Ricardo

[Don Ricardo]

Hi all,

I've been in two minds about which thread to put this post on, partly because it could be a bit controversial. However, I've decided to post it here because it is related to Viscount history, but it could also equally have gone on the DHL Valiant (by Viscount) thread...

In November 2017 the following photos of a 'Viscount Valiant' caravan surfaced on Gumtree:












There was some discussion about the identity of the van on various Viscount Facebook pages at the time, and as I recall the general consensus was that it wasn't Valiant because...we all know what the Valiants built by Viscount look like (ie not like this van) and it doesn't look like any other Viscount we've seen either. Twocutekelpies was involved in the conversation at the time (although I'm not ascribing any of the previously stated views to her), so she can set me straight if my recollection is incorrect.

However our knowledge about Viscount has multiplied quite considerably since 2017, and I have looked at these photos quite often, scratching my head all the while. As a result of all that scratching, plus the additional information we now have, the following points have occurred to me:

• While the van doesn't look like any Viscount we've seen on the forum, the design is not all that different to some of the Viscounts from the late 50's and early 60's. Going further, the front windows and the slope on them are similar to the style seen on Adelaide built Viscounts in the mid to late 60's, and also the Adelaide built Vogue caravans which emerged out of the Adelaide business.
• The van doesn't seem to resemble any other caravan brand that we know of (or at least that I can think of).
• The small back window is a bit unusual, but is the same as I have seen on another Viscount a few years ago (but didn't take photos of to my shame ).
• The signwritten 'Viscount Valiant' signage is a similar style to the signage routinely placed on Adelaide built Viscounts from the 50's and early 60's. The signwriting looks pretty fresh which may mean that it was put on by some misguided Viscount fan, but equally it could also be a faithful reproduction of the original.  Note that  the signage on the rear hasn't been refreshed and appears to be a faded version.
  
• We now know that from early on until at least 1963 or 64, Viscount gave each of its model a specific name according to its length. Some of the names in the early 60's were Airflow (12ft 6in), Venturer (13ft 6in), Royal (15ft 3in) and Supreme (18ft). We've compiled a partial list (mostly for NSW-built vans) here. Valiant isn't among the list we have, but then we know the list is incomplete.  We also know that the Adelaide factory used to include the model name in the signwriting on the front, side and rear of their caravans. So we've seen Adelaide-built Viscount Royals and Viscount Supremes with their model name clearly written on them.

Given all the above, I am now wondering if in fact the caravan in the photos is exactly what it says - a Viscount Valiant - produced in the Adelaide factory in the early 60's? Perhaps Viscount Adelaide was using the 'Valiant' name for one of its smaller models before the name was then used for the Valiants which we are more familiar with (and which I think were mainly built in the NSW factory)?

A fly in this particular speculative ointment is that the side cladding on the van in the photos above wasn't introduced until around 1964, which might suggest that this van wasn't built until then or later. However, the van has had some later modifications included the drop down table attached to the nearside of the van, the vinyl front guard and the modern refrigerator inside. So maybe the side cladding was replaced at some point? Perhaps the sides were even originally clad in bondwood like the early versions of the later Valiants we are more used to?

OK, so what do all think of this theory? Be kind! 

Don Ricardo

[hughdeany]

Hi Don,
For what it’s worth I don’t think it’s a Viscount,wrong everything except the signage,which as we all know anyone can do!
At present there are 4 vans for sale masquerading as Viscount,an Escort,a Newlands,an Evernew and a Executive! This happens all the time as we know,but seems to be coming more prevelant now,probably due to Covid 19 and folk wanting to cash in on a well known name.
I still think this could be factory made,because I can vaguely remember something like it in the past,I just can’t remember where!😳
Cheers
hughdeany

[Don Ricardo]

Hi Hughdeany,

Thanks for your comments - always worth receiving.

I've always been pretty skeptical about the van being a Viscount, but a couple of things have caused me to reconsider. First, the rear window and shape of the rear which I have seen on another Viscount (and it seems unlikely that there are two similar vans out there that have both had the Adelaide style Viscount signage put on them by chance). Second, what we've learnt in recent times about how the Adelaide factory identified the model with the Viscount signage, eg the Viscount Supreme shown higher up this thread. Third, the fact that there is a remnant of faded Viscount signage on the rear. And fourth, the fact that we now know that each of the three Viscount factories developed their own models to some extent, and as a result had distinctive model ranges which makes an Adelaide only built 'Viscount Valiant' a possibility.

Don Ricardo

[Don Ricardo]

Hi all,

Following are some adverts sent to me by Twocutekelpies some time ago that illustrate some of the developments, and twists and turns in Viscount history. The last few adverts are after 1969 (ie after the vintage era), however I've included them because Viscount history continued after that date.

I am posting the adverts without comment at this point, apart from the last one, but am happy for people to discuss them if they find them interesting.

Thanks to Twocutekelpies for providing this treasure trove.

And the advert below is the one I'll comment on. Strictly speaking it doesn't belong on this thread because the Valiant Royal caravans referred to were not built by Viscount but by Bill Cole and Cec Taylor.  The Valiant Royals in question have a lot of similarities to Viscount vans of the mid-1970's, but Viscount seems to have phased their Valiant model out in 1974.  I presume that Viscount must have had some arrangement with Cole and Taylor because it seems unlikely that Viscount would have just allowed them to appropriate the model name for a similar design.  Perhaps Cole and Taylor were former Viscount employees?  Note that they stated their vans were backed by 20 years experience.

Interestingly, the Cole and Taylor Valiant Royal seems to have been marketed as a bit of an upmarket caravan, although the Valiant was always Viscount's budget model.

Don Ricardo

[realmccoy]

Hi there l have a viscount 1970 can someone help me with what brake and bearing they use on this caravan and where can l buy parts aswell. Thank you

[geebee25]

Hi All, I have been looking at your thread about the old Viscount caravans, trying to date a Duralvan my son bought from an old friend. I have found all the info very interesting & helpful.

I believed that our van was circa 1966, & this seems to match up with much of your work.

Hubby & I were doing some repairs & repaint,(although I think the original paint might be a bit distorted) to get the van registered & I came across something very interesting I felt I really had to share with all you good people 
I had to remove the "clearance light covers" to repaint the lens & I found that there was a date stamped inside the cover.
I will attach pics of the caravan & the inside of the clearance light covers.

If this was a standard occerence on vans of this era it might help others to date their caravans.
Our covers look like they have dates of April & May 1964, meaning it was probably an early 1965 model

[geebee25]

[Don Ricardo]

Hi Geebee25,

Welcome to the forum, and thanks for showing us the photos of your son's Viscount.

Based on the serial number of A965, the van was built in either 1964 or 1965. The caravan with the serial number A979 was built in April 1965, so I would think that A965 was also built early in 1965, given that the two serial numbers are only 14 apart. That fits with what you've surmised and fits with the dates you found on the clearance light covers.

That's a handy hint you've told us about regarding the dates on the light covers, by the way. I'm sure that will help a lot of people.

Regarding the paint work, I am hoping that Twocutekelpies will come along and tell you a bit more about the flashes on the sides of the van. She's compiled a lot of Viscount information, including on serial numbers (it's due to her work that I was able to tell you about A979).

Don Ricardo

[Don Ricardo]

Evening everyone.

When is a 1964 Viscount, not a 1964 Viscount? Answer: When it's a 1964 Valiant Alumvan!



For more information about an apparently small group of Viscounts branded as 'Valiant Alumvans' in 1964 see here.

Don Ricardo

[Don Ricardo]

Afternoon all,

In June 2015, Vintagevalerie posted photos of her caravan here asking for assistance to identify the make, model and year:

















One other feature of the van was that the serial number welded on the inside of the offside arm of the drawbar began with 'R', followed by a couple of other symbols/letters - 'CC' perhaps?



It was noted that the double awning windows at the rear were not original, and there were various suggestions about the origins of the van, but Hughdeany expressed his view that the van was a Viscount, even though the serial number didn't fit the standard Viscount format.  Nobody was able to effectively refute his view - and let's face it Hughdeany knows his vans - and the question of origin was left in the air!

Then on 24 January 2021 on the same thread where Vintagevalerie had posted her photos, Jaycee posted a photo of her van and asked if it was a Viscount Regal. There has also been some discussion on Facebook regarding Jaycee's caravan and she has very kindly provided me and Twocutekelpies with a number of photos of the van:

 









 

 

 



It is evident from these photos that Jaycee's caravan has the same origins as Vintagevalerie's, and the serial number on the inside of the offside arm of the drawbar is 'R1' indicating that this is the case:



After quite a bit of discussion online and offline, the general consensus is that the vans are Viscounts which were built in the Adelaide factory around 1963, and Hughdeany is still of the view that the vans are Viscounts. The evidence for the vans being Viscounts is as follows:

1. The type of diamond impressed, unridged cladding, the livery on the vans (ie the placement and style of the coloured panels), and the spats is the same as that used on Viscount's 1963 model caravans from the Sydney and Melbourne factories (see for example here). The livery in particular is a style which was used by very few other manufacturers, the only other example I can think of being Chesney on their vans from around 1964/65.
2. Similar livery continued to be used by the Adelaide Viscount factory on some of the caravans they built up until the late 60's (see post to come).
3. The profile of the front of the vans with the two large awning windows is the same or very similar to the profile of the Adelaide built Viscount vans right through the middle and later 60's (see here) and was carried through even when the name of the vans was changed to Vogue.
4. Hughdeany and Twocutekelpies are of the opinion that the internal cabinetry in the vans is very similar to that which appeared in Viscount caravans.

There are two possible arguments against this. One is that the serial numbers (such as they are) beginning with 'R' do not fit the normal Viscount format and are not located in the normal place for a Viscount serial number (on the side or the top of the nearside arm of the drawbar). However, while we know the format of Adelaide serial numbers up until around 1962 (a three digit number with no letter of the alphabet) and the format of their serial numbers in the late 60's ('VC' followed by two or three digits - see post to follow for examples), we don't know what format was used in Adelaide in between, so the 'R' serial number may be possible. The second argument is that Jaycee's van was badged as a Scenic (see first photo of her van above), but our understanding is that the Victorian company Scenic sourced caravans from various manufacturers and sold them badged under the Scenic name. Therefore it is possible that they rebadged some Viscounts.

So the current thinking is that Vintagevalerie's and Jaycee's caravans are both Viscounts built in the Adelaide factory in 1963 or thereabouts. This conclusion is based on a few assumptions, so if anyone thinks those assumptions or the identification of the vans are in error, it will be interesting to hear their thoughts.

Thanks to Jaycee for providing the additional photos of her van so its origins could be explored.

Don Ricardo

[kristend]

Hello lovely humans.

Can someone please help me with identifying any details of the new vintage van I've just purchased.

It's a Viscount Supreme with the chassis number 565245.

[Don Ricardo]

Hi Kristend,

Welcome to the forum and thanks for showing us photos of your van.

Viscount used several different formats for their serial numbers over the years. Between 1973 and 1978 the format was a ‘AYXXXX’ where A is a letter of the alphabet indicating the model, Y is a digit indicating the year, and XXXX is a four digit, sequential number indicating the build number in the given year.

You have told us that the serial number on your van is ‘ 565245’, but I’m certain that the first ‘5’ is actually an ‘S’ indicating Supreme. The ‘S’ often looked like a ‘5’. The ‘6’ which follows indicates the van was built in 1976, and ‘5245’ tells us that it was the 5,245th van built by Viscount in that year. They used to turn out around 10,000 vans a year at that point, so your serial number could indicate that yours was built roughly in the middle of the year.

Hope that helps.

Don Ricardo

[Don Ricardo]

Early Viscount caravan advertised on the Vintage Caravan Renovations and Sales, Australia Facebook page in March 2021

This van is from around the same period as Shesgotthelook’s early Viscount here - perhaps built between 1956 and 1958.





















Don Ricardo

[Don Ricardo]

South Australian built Viscount caravan posted on the Viscount Caravan Owners - Australia Facebook page in January 2021:









The indicators that this caravan was built in Viscount’s Adelaide factory are the livery, the diamond shaped Viscount sticker, and the serial number VC114

Don Ricardo

[Don Ricardo]

1964 Viscount with ‘log cabin’ cladding:


(Source unknown)

Viscount only began to widely or exclusively use the ‘log cabin’ cladding for its 1969 Viscount models onwards when the cladding was also coated with white acrylic paint.  However this van plus a couple of other earlier examples that have been seen were also clad with the same uncleared material.

Don Ricardo

[twocutekelpies]

Aug 28, 2021 12:41:35 GMT 10 Don Ricardo said:

1964 Viscount with ‘log cabin’ cladding:

Viscount only began to widely or exclusively use the ‘log cabin’ cladding for its 1969 Viscount models onwards when the cladding was also coated with white acrylic paint.  However this van plus a couple of other earlier examples that have been seen were also clad with the same uncleared material.

Don Ricardo

Hi Don, my observation with the early log cabin cladding is that it had the same diamond embossing as the other cladding of that time, it isn't smooth like the white acrylic one.   

[Don Ricardo]

Hi Twocutekelpies,

That is interesting to read. So perhaps it was the flat sheeting being rolled to provide the log cabin profile?  I wonder if it was an option for Viscount buyers?

There was an “early log cabin” Viscount at the 2021 Nationals. I wish I’d known to look more closely at the panelling.

Baravan was using log cabin cladding but with ‘wider logs’ on their vans at about the same period, and with the cladding laid vertically rather than horizontally.

Don Ricardo

[Don Ricardo]

Hi Twocutekelpies,

This is the 1964 Viscount with log cabin cladding that was at the 2021 Vintage Caravan Nationals in Victor Harbor:



Serial number N1393, so built in the Sydney factory:



I know you already have this one on your register, but I thought I'd post it here as a step towards understanding the early 'log cabin' puzzle...and in fact - checking back - I posted about the same van here when it was listed for sale back in 2017, so it's nice to see that it has stayed in the Vintage Caravan community.

Don Ricardo

[kenny]

Hey Don, 
I found this photo in the BCC library, It seems BCC were taking it for survey purposes but the in background you can see some nice advertising for Valiant and Ambassador caravans, plus there are some there on display / for sale?  The site is currently where Kedron Caravan's are located today on Gympie Road at "Kedron".  I've attached a Google Street view of the same spot.

Please put this photo anywhere you see fit.

Regards kenny

[Don Ricardo]

Hi Kenny,

That’s a couple of interesting photos. I’m guessing that Ambassador Caravans was probably an independent Viscount dealer in Brisbane. That seemed to be the pattern in states where there was no Viscount factory. For example, in Melbourne there were dealerships called Valiant and Ambassador that seemed to sell the full range of NSW Viscount products, and sometimes other brands as well. Although having said that there is also a big Valiant sign behind the Ambassador sign, so maybe they were just advertising all their wares?

I note that the big advert under the Ambassador sign is actually for a Viscount Duralvan rather than an Ambassador, but over to the left of the sign are a couple of actual caravans - one of which looks like a Valiant, and the other possibly an Ambassador with the optional wrap around windows (or is it a Duralvan?).  Based on the flashes on the vans on the left of the photo, the photo was taken in 1966.

Thanks for posting the photos. I might move have moved your post and this one to the DHL Viscount thread.

Don Ricardo

[shesgotthelook]

'Borrowed' from a sales post

[Don Ricardo]

Hi SGTL,

That’s an interesting find.  Based on the serial number the caravan is one of the Viscount Supremes with fibreglass ends. Twocutekelpies will be interested in the date connected to the serial number.

Don Ricardo

[twocutekelpies]

Sept 13, 2021 21:33:22 GMT 10 shesgotthelook said:

'Borrowed' from a sales post

Any chance of a link to the sales ad so I can put the features in the register as well please SGTL? Thanks for posting that. 

Cheers
Shelley 

[Don Ricardo]

Hi all,

I’ve been browsing through WA vintage & classic caravan rescuer and forum member Aza’s ‘Just Retro Caravans’ Facebook page and came across some photos of a Viscount Duralvan with a colourful sticker. I don’t recall seeing this sticker before:



The van in question is a 1969 to 1970 model Viscount Duralvan tandem, shown here some months later after a clean up:


(Source:  Just Retro Caravans FB, September 2016 and January 2020)

I’m familiar with the older Viscount Duralvan stickers which have a more monochrome background and letters either fully coloured or outlined in blue and yellow, like this one:



My question is, does anybody know when the more colourful version was introduced? Did they designate a particular model (ie size)?

Don Ricardo