Does anyone tow with a VC Valiant or XP/XM Falcon (1966ish)?

[LinPet]

Hi,

Does anyone have a VC Valiant or XP or XM Falcon, around 1965 - 1966 model, that you tow with? What motors have you got in them? Do they handle towing well? What economy to do get when towing?

Can get heaps of info about economy around town etc, but haven't been able to track down any info for economy when towing - Can anyone help please?

Any other info also appreciated.

Thanks.

Peter.

[1954homemade]

Hi Peter,

I used to tow my blue and white van with a VC, an S Series and a 64 Barracuda.

All 3 were on dedicated gas. The S was a slant six, the Barracuda we took out the 273 and put in a 318, can't remember what was in the VC. We used the S series and Barracuda as daily drivers so towed with them the most.

Handling was fine, no problems at all and towed at full speed without any trouble.

I never bother with exact economy. But I do remember that I would loose approx 1/3 distance per tank when towing that van. Having said that I still loose the same amount of distance now, when I tow it with my XT Falcon also dedicated gas.

Regards
Di

[kaybee]

Hi,you'll get a better result with the Valiant than the Falcon ,the Valiant had much more torque than the short stroke Falcon 6 and will make a much easier job of it. When you have an engine that's not working too hard to do the job,it will give you better relative economy than a smaller short stroke engine used to do the same job. Ultimately the economy on either has much to do with the way you drive , if you just take it all gently and don't expect to be out there on the highway passing all in sight , you'll get better economy and longevity from your engine and driveline than if you drive flat out most of the time.....regards, Colin

[sutcac]

Hi Pete. Lots of variables in your question.Std or modified engine . Manual or auto trans.
Weight / shape of van. State of tune of engine. etc etc.

I'd go with Col with the slant 6/ 225 cube donk for the reasons he pointed out. (longer stroke , more cubes ,not working as hard) Ford is either 144/170/ or 200 cubes

I would guess that a VC manual 225 slant six in good tune may return low 20's mpg(16L/100km) highway cycle.....and mid teens mpg(20L/100km) towing something like your aerodynamic,lightish Kennedy.

As Col says, a lot depends on how much of a hurry you're in to get where you're going!!!!!
Also the Val may be slightly heavier than the Ford by 100kgs or so.
Val had 3 speed Torqueflight auto.
Ford had 2 speed Fordomatic(maybe 3 sp later on?)

Hope this helps. Sutcac.

[belvue]

In the late 60's my father and I both towed the 12'6" Belvue with HD Holden and XM/XP Falcon. They were 3speed manual and the XM 2 speed auto. 179/170 motors.

From memory the Holden had better gear ratios, but no Synchro on 1st, so there was a bit of driving skill involved. Heaters were optional in those days and a fan heater with demister is essential for early cold start morning's. Both cars needed additional power brakes.

Ride and handling was mediocre, but when we had the Evans Levelrides put on the actual outfits handling was better than just a car IMO. Undulations and level crossings etc could be crossed with aplomb.

Fuel consumption dropped considerably, and I can remember a trip to the Western District with a very strong headwind was almost 2nd gear and abt 14mpg. Work on high teens or low 20 mpg.

Colin's comments about the Valiant are spot on it has abt an extra litre capacity after all. The Valiant's torqueflite auto is a much better proposition than the original Hydramatic, Powerglide, Fordomatic etc.

We also towed that same van with a 3.5 litre Jaguar with 4 speed manual, a much better tow car.

[kaybee]

G'day Clyde, XM's had the 2 speed Fordomatic,a perfectly foul transmission with the longest drawn out 1-2 shift in the universe , useless for towing even with the biggest option 200 engine , XP used the BW35 3 speed trans, a better trans to drive, but still with it's own set of issues internally. Better to have a manual trans in an early Falcon unless a person feels up to transplanting a later 6 ( 221 or 250) with a C4 trans behind it....then it'll boogie!.....

[kaybee]

Hi Belvue, yes,the Jag would give you a certain edge!. Your comments about the various transmissions are on the money too. I spent time in the early 70's as a trans rebuilder , and by far the strongest and most reliable was the Torqueflite in the Valiants. Holdens Hydramatic is a slug ,it soaks up lotsa horsepower to drive itself and parts are really hard to find,as is someone who knows their way around one to rebuild it. The Powerglide is a much better proposition , even with 2 speeds it's a strong trans with tight shifts ,but again....hard parts are increasingly scarce and most folks tend to favour fitting the Trimatic from the later cars , which now seem to have had the problems sorted out that plagued them when they were first introduced. My suggestion is to buy either a decent Valiant 6 or 8cyl , or move up a bit and go for a V8 Falcon/Fairlane or a V8 HK/T/G Holden.....can't go far wrong in any of those.

[craigb]

I just thought i would add in another factor that may or may not be relevant for you. I think most states now have some sort of cheaper rego for 'historic' vehicles but the conditions do vary on vehicles, how you can use them and price. Using SA as an example, my V8 car on historic cost $127/yr and i can go anywhere in that for any reason up to 90 days of the year (need to write each day into a specific log book and be a member of a car club - mine is $40) and yet my normally registered V8 car is $833/yr at the moment. Correspondingly insurance is cheaper (because they know you can't use it as much and is likely to be looked after - I think NRMA/SGIC is about $70/yr on $4k value - also has these free breakdown features if more than about 100km from home to cater for club people on runs - google NRMA classic car insurance or something like that). Sounds great and I will try not to be too outspoken but the original legislation said the car had to be 'not significantly modified' but the translation of that seems to be basically exactly as it left the factory - strictly no fitting of later motors or even a car that had a 6cyl and has a v8 now from the same era - but that may just be SA.

Anyway, the point of mentioning is that if you are not planning on using it more than 90 days in the year, you might want to think about this and therefore you need to have a car that will pass the inspections of a club. And if you are looking for a good VC valiant, your local Valiant club might not be a bad place to put your feelers out and you may get a car that is already on that scheme and then you know it will pass the checks.

And my car question to others - my inlaws have a VG Valiant that has been made available to us that they owned from new, has the Hemi 6 (245 from memory) and auto - needs lots of cosmetic work sitting in an open farm shed at the moment covered in bird dung but great engine and no rust. Any issues with that pulling a 20ft Roadmaster? The trans is suspect so i would just pull that and send it off, hopefully that can be beefed up in a rebuild but would have thought. Thought i would ask before i put a zillion hours into respraying and doing the interior!

[bigkel]

If you are going to tow a heavy larger van i would go for a full size USA Automatic type car . Pontiac ( Aust assembled Pontiacs have Chev running gear ) or a Chev ,all driveline parts are available all over Aust . Also with the price of the Aust big three going through the roof the Chev/Pontiac option could be cheaper ,
You need a car that is totally in control over the van , otherwise caravaning is not a holiday ,it is a stress test every day .
Photo of a couple of my tow cars , The red one is a 65 Pontiac Parisienne and has the Chev running gear , the other is a 60 Bonneville ( Usa made and is LH drive ,parts are not so easy for that one )



another option ( below )is full size Ford my Galaxie did a great job , big low reving 390 ci ,6.4 lt V8 aust was very economical on gas



cheers kel.

[sutcac]

Hi craigb.I wouldn't consider towing a 20' Roadmaster(1600kg + laden ?) with the VG valiant. It would physically tow it, but not very well.

Vg Valiant 245 =165 bhp/235ftlb torque. weighing 1350kg

Minimium for me would be larger American or Aussie V8 or light truck...F100 or Chev or equivalent.

[craigb]

Thanks for that - saved me a bit of work perhaps! Needs to have 4 seats so perhaps a big old 390 Galaxy perhaps! When i was a kid we had a VC Valiant and mum's best friend had about a 66 Galaxy from memory that they didn't get offered much as a trade in and they offered it to dad for that price. We had it for a week to try out and dad decided against it...... I was devastated! In the late 50's they both bought customlines but they went then to a galaxy and dad to the Valiant. It also reminds me how dad I think did the heads himself on the customline and inbetween he bought a cheap replacement car for us to use..... an Austin A30! I guess with 3 young kids the heads took a little longer than expected and then it was finished shortly before trading on the Valiant. What a difference - I was really young and all on the verge of my memories, but I remember the excitement of when the Cusso was running again and using it for a short while - guess i must have been a car nut way back then and funny how my boys at 7 and 9 have only a passing interest in my car and motorbike collection now in double figures. Years later the fun stories dad would most talk about would be in his Austin 7 and then the Austin A30..... and i probably have most fun in my tiny 1924 Amilcar! Still, bigger the better when towing i guess. I have a V8 Mercedes of the right sort of vintage (1970) and that is 1700kg i think and 200bhp, but the independent rear suspension I think would rule out towing such a mass. With a leaf sprung car the chassis runs right to the rear and the spring hangers and your towbar is mounted close to the spring that is of course where the pulling force from the wheels is transmitted. On the Benz you are pulling from where the suspension arms connect around the back seat and there is a lot of metal between there and the back of the car to stretch! No rush for now though as my land rover can handle pulling it around for now, if not exactly 'period' - good to think about though.

[Jennison]

The 90 day unrestricted use rego is commonly known as SIVS (special interest vehicle )registration.
I thought it was more open to "modified" vehicles....hence the "special interest" classification
NSW and ACT at this stage have flatly refused to do it. I am not 100% sure of the current state of affairs in all the other states but the last I heard Tas and WA also won't consider it.
Seems Vic, SA (and possibly Qld?) are the only enlightened ones!! (Dunno about NT)
jenno

[LinPet]

Hi, Thanks for all the input so far from everyone. Sounds like the Valiant would be the better tow vehicle. We are wanting a station wagon, with auto if possible.

Regarding the Special Interest Rego - it's not in Qld. They are looking at it now, but from the reports we have been reading, looks like the Car Clubs that are advising them are all dead set against it, so don't imagine there is much hope of it coming in. And if it does, don't know what the restrictions will be. But are the modification restrictions there set by the Government, or the club's rules you are in? Some clubs up here won't let you even join if you have a modified vehicle.

V8 rego here is $1004.40/yr, and V6 $826.90. (it used to be more, but the CTP has just come down)

Obviously, the V8 would tow better, but what sort of towing economy would you get?

[sutcac]

Hi Pete. Special interest rego is available in Qld. I have had several vehicles on it over the past decade.
Expect to pay about $180 a year for rego and the same or a bit more for insurance(Shannons),depending on value.

Registering your vehicle under the Special Interest Vehicle Registration
Concession Scheme
1. Historic vehicles
You will need to follow the standard registration procedures for a vehicle as well as completing a Vehicle
Registration Concession Application (form F3937) and providing the following documents as proof of eligibility:
 Club membership: Evidence of current membership with a Queensland incorporated vehicle club or
association must be provided at the time of application for the concession. Vehicles other than historic
ambulances and fire-fighting equipment vehicles must be registered in the name of the club member
(individuals only).
 Historic vehicle and dating certificate: A dating officer (or club official) of a Queensland incorporated
vehicle club or association must inspect the vehicle to certify the vehicle’s authenticity and year of
manufacture, that is, no structural modifications have been made that would deem it as manufactured
at the date it was modified. This certificate must be on club letterhead or other official club
documentation and include the chassis number or vehicle identification number.
Restricted vehicle use
Vehicles registered under the scheme have certain limitations placed on their use. This is reflected in the
reduced fees and compulsory third party insurance premium. Registered operators must confine their vehicle’s
use to:
 participating in rallies organised by incorporated vehicle clubs
 participating in processions for which a Special Events Permit has been issued under the Transport
Operations (Road Use Management –Accreditation and Other Provisions) Regulation 2005
 exhibiting the vehicle in displays, fetes or similar functions conducted for religious, charitable or
educational purposes
 ceremonial purposes (weddings, formals) involving immediate family members provided this is not done
for fee or reward. Immediate family means parents, grandparents, sons, daughters, grandchildren but
not extended family relationships such as nephews and nieces
 preparing for, proceeding to, and returning from the above activities
 direct travel to and from an Approved Inspection Station (AIS) for the purposes of obtaining a safety
certificate before offering the vehicle for sale
 travel in order to have the vehicle repaired. There is no distance restriction in these circumstances
however, such travel must be reasonable and justifiable by the vehicle operator
 road testing within a 15 kilometre radius from the place where the vehicle is garaged. The purpose of
the travel must be to road test the vehicle following repair or restoration and not for any other purpose.
This does not include use as a means of transport.
Buses are permitted to carry non-fare paying passengers for journeys (joy-rides) from an event (e.g. fete) and
return provided the length of the journey does not exceed 5 kilometres. Payment of any kind cannot be
received for these journeys.
Heavy vehicles over 4.5 tonnes GVM are permitted to carry a load provided the loaded GVM or gross
combination mass (GCM) does not exceed 50% of the maximum permitted mass for the vehicle configuration.
This mass is based on the lesser of:
1. Individual Axle ratings
2. Tyre manufacturer's limits
3. Manufacturer's GVM or GCM
4. Regulation Mass Limits
The load carried must be in relation to or part of the reason for the vehicle's use under the scheme.


There are a couple of Val Wagons for sale on Carsales/Just Cars etc atm.Expect to pay $10k..$20k for anything half decent!

I'm guessing that a 273/318 cu in V8 in a Val Wagon would return about low 20'sL /100 km

I reckon the 225 cu in slant 6 would tow your Kennedy OK too . Just be workin a bit harder. For similar fuel consumption

Cheers , Clyde.

[belvue]

One thing to check for with Valiants is body fatigue in the firewall/windscreen pillar area. You might see cracks near lower corner of the front windscreen. I suspect the front torsion bar rear mountings generate some movement in that area over time.

I think in a perfect world my preferred classic tow car would be an XT Falcon Fairmont 302 with C4 Trans.

I would try to avoid a Fairlane or other car with long rear overhang for outfit handling reasons.

[LinPet]

we had a car on ltd reg , it was a pain only going on club runs or to swap meets ect , we like to drive our old cars ,under the rego rules we could not use the car to go on vintage caravan runs as it is not a inc club,its not a club at all just a forum, so by going on a caravan run we woulb be driving with out rego, not good , so we will put the car on full rego ( when I get a car )

[JBJ]

Hi,

I guess its a matter of finding a club that caters for your needs. No two clubs operate the same from my experience. I've been a member of enough over the last 50 plus years to not want to be in any more if I can avoid it.

In NSW Historic Rego is for fairly original (a bit loose on definition, but covering vehicles that can be registered without requiring modified vehicle rego) vehicles, & caravans if in the Clubs Charter/rules.

I'm lucky I have found a club acceptable to RMS that covers Vintage vans , defined as over 30 years old.No requirements to attend meetings, fight with one another over crap, etc.

The restrictions on use are pretty easy to comply with, & very few of us dont have a normal vehicle on full rego.
I contact the club officer & give details of my proposed trip, & they email me a permit. I print that & carry it in my van. As I never really need to use the van without at least several days thought, it is not a problem. The same would apply to using a Historic Rego car I believe.

My hotrod will NEVER comply with Historic rego, but an 83 model car would if unmodified ( in NSW). I can put my hotrod on street rod registration if I wanted, but dont chose to belong to a Hot Rod club or be a member of the ASRF (at this stage)

I could have a 30 year old car, with period modifications like wide rims, hotted up original or type approved motor ( like red motor in early Holdens), modified suspension , etc, provided its not radically modified.

Theres generally a way to get something like what you want if you apply the rules & dont try to fight them.

It should still be fun at best

JBJ

[LinPet]

Sorry, just to clarify what Peter typed - Qld doesn't have the Special Interest Rego that allows you to drive 90 days of the year ANYWHERE that was mentioned above, only the limited rego (as Suctac detailed) that you can only go on gazetted Car Club runs and such, and you would not be able to go on caravan runs on this forum. If they ever bring in the 90 day rego here, which is looking unlikely, we'll be in it!

[bigkel]

In Qld , if you are a member of a properly constructed car club you can legally attend a run of any other properly constructed car club , so if a V/V run is on and one of the others attending is from a proper car club and has made it a run (,ie in their newsletter or on their website .)
I have done interstate trips on club rego . i believe you need to have a starting point and time and destination in the run details .
Two drivers in Cairns got $170 ticket each for breaking the SIV's rules 2 weeks ago and it made the local paper ,( they were more than 15 klm from home ) so i think that the police are putting us on notice that they now will be on the lookout for people breaking the rules ,

cheers kel.

[craigb]

I haven't been involved at the national level for a number of years, but I think tassie was the only place back then that I think had it worked out. A national scheme that combined the fairest features from across the states would be the best. Tassie had the NSW /WA type basically club only events type thing for a reduced price and then they had their parallel 'SIV' scheme in that you got your 90 days and paid for it, 25% of full rego, but you could use a logbook to use that over the year. It basically covered 'recreational' vehicles, so included hotrods etc if that was your thing. I also like the condition that you had to also have a fully registered vehicle or a stat dec from your employer to say you had a company car. Idea being that you can only drive one car at once so they are getting their fair share from the full rego car and then offering more equitable schemes to cover different peoples use - eg. my Amilcar only gets out basically on car runs/ cars from the 60's i might like to take for a bit of a drive more often so pay my fair share for that too. I don't want to rip the rest of the public off for the enjoyment of my hobby, but i protest to being unfairly taxed because my hobby involves a number of cars, rather than say golf, or collecting stamps etc. But unfortunately govt are hell bent on drawing any money they can out of any source they can and fairness is a joke and it doesn't help that the clubs and advisors that JBJ talks of seem to be hell bent on their own self interest and can't promote something that would be inclusive off a number of uses and hobbies eg. rods vs the original stuff - when both have a lot of similarities as hobbies and i think should and for many do support each other. Despite trying my hardest I can only drive one car at a time and i pay 8x 90 day historic rego and also full rego on my everyday car - most of those fees being for third party insurance - so how can that be a fair cut of my third party risk and particularly if things are the same back in 2007 when we asked the question of the third party insurance about claims for vehicles on historic and for that year had been zero across the state and almost none at all since the inception. Still, i do appreciate some saving and the chance to enjoy a number of vehicles i the same year. And if anyone was thinking ' he must have plenty of money having all those old vehicles (although i restored each myself with my all my own work) - what's he complaining about' then i would rather they would be honest and tax me for having 'plenty of money' and also all the other people with plenty of money and not taxing me for preserving our motoring history - but probably preaching to the converted with you all preserving our caravanning history.

And apologies if that sounds like a bit of a rant - my intention was more to describe the issue and some food for thought. Clubs are a great thing, even if they are just online and i am sure the support and community and all that saves our system in lots of ways rather than being a cost. I remember helping to organise a national survey on what the old car movement puts into the economy and it had a comment area at the end and this guy from a country club made the comment "I reckon i would have drunk myself to death or topped myself by now if a mate hadn't dragged me along to a club and got me into old cars.... "

[paddlepops]

my xm coupe is running a 289 Windsor v8 with c4 auto so would make a great tow car but being my pride and joy is don't tow anything!!!!

[gilbert]

I have a 1964 xm falcon 55,000 genuine miles on the clock I have towed my 15 foot vacationer van with no problem at all , will also be towing my globe trotter when it's finished ,it's a manual

[LinPet]

we got a vc valiant wagon , it tows the van well thanks for all the imput