First Trip in our VV - what an epic event

[stevenm]

Hi All, its been a while since i last logged on.
The story from the start - I have been working on my old EK Holden with the intent of getting it rego'd for our Easter holiday to tow the VV. 3 weeks before we were due to leave i was told that "i have no chance what so ever of getting the car ready and registered for Easter", so i took that as a challenge and worked my butt off till midnight 7 days a week for 3 weeks straight, and managed to get rego 4 days before we were to leave on holidays. there was still lots of fiddly items left to do and i still worked on the car right up untill 5 miuntes before we pulled out the driveway on the 16th April with the VV in tow ready for the VV and the cars first big adventure.
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The trip from Toowomba to Bribie was fairly un-eventfull except for the rear tyres lightly rubbing on the rear guards. So for the trip home we swapped the wider rear tyres to to the front and put the narrower front tyres on the back.

As for the trip home all was good for most of the trip home untill a god allmighty thump and the van dropped to the roadway half way along the Gatton Bypass. A few very tense moments and i pulled the car and van off the road the best i could manage before the EK could no longer move the van dragging on the road.

What I found to my dismay was the old FJ hubs with the brand new wheels studs loosly hanging in the hub with the stud holes flogged out 2-3mm oversized still with the wheel studs and wheel nuts intact By this time BeauB who was travelling a few km's behind us had caught up and he found the old rim complete with the hub cap still attached.
To remove the nuts studs i had to remove the entire hub from the axle and with multigrips grip on the back of the wheel studsto remove the wheel nuts, then did the same to fit the spare tyre before i could refit the hub/tyre to the axle, refit the bearings and hit the road again (at a slow pace) with the hope we could limp to BeauB's parents place. Unfortunatly the spare only held out for 1 km due to the stud holes being flogged out and we had no choice but to pull over and get the van put onto a tilt tray to bring it back home to Toowoomba.

Damage to the van is cosmetic only, bent my nice new paint behind the wheel arch nad smashed the timber, twisted a floor joist and slightly lifted the kithen cupboard (2-3mm). Pretty minor really, and all fixable when compared to what could have happened........

Before we went on holidays I have my father over giving me a hand working on the EK and the VV and i got him to re-pack the wheel bearings on the van. My dad was a mechanic with Holden for 20 years and he warned me that i should check the wheel nuts every time i pull over as the old FJ rimson the van was renowned for the nuts working loose. I never thought twice about it when we fueled up at BP Blacksoil and th eoutcoem is obvious. So as a word of caution to everybody out there, running these older rims check teh wheel nuts any time you pull over. Fortutnatly for us I managed to hang onto the car and van and get it pull over safely.


So before we can go to Coolie Rocks on we are ordering a complete new axle assembly with electric brakes. Not sure if i will go with HT Holden of Falcom stud pattern yet.

[Roehm3108]

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How lucky were you guys. Good that you got out of your predicament safely. As they say, you can fix a car or caravan, but it's much harder fixing a broken body. Safe trip next time.
Ray

[Deleted]

nice rig Steve .....the ek & caravan are a good match

I had a similar rim problem a coupla years ago, with the nuts wearing thru the wheel .......no fun hey

steve says:
i have no chance what so ever of getting the car ready and registered for Easter", so i took that as a challenge and worked my butt off till midnight 7 days a week for 3 weeks straight, and managed to get rego 4 days before we were to leave on holidays. there was still lots of fiddly items left to do and i still worked on the car right up untill 5 miuntes before we pulled out the driveway on the 16th April with the VV in tow ready for the VV and the cars first big adventure.

...... :-/there ain't nothing better than a deadline to get a project finished ........works for me !



Mark

[Geoff & Jude]

hi stevem

sorry to hear about your bad luck and glad to hear nobody was hurt as a result.

unfortunately, holden designed 'a trap for young players' in their early wheel configurartions.

i believe the early (48 to 56) holdens had two different wheel hole designs.

one had a slightly smaller hole diameter than the other and as a consequence, there were two different wheel nut designs.

if you used the wheel nuts from the smaller holed wheel on the larger holed wheel, the nuts would bottom out on the drum before they actually fully tightened the wheel.

this may explain why it was so difficult to loosen the wheel nuts even though the wheel had 'flogged' it's way over the nuts and why the spare flogged out after 1km.

others may know more about he technicalities, but i think they also had a different nose taper.

better check the other one to see if it's ok.

geoff 'n jude

[cobber]

Franklin1 mentioned this a couple of weeks ago when I gave him a wheel with the larger holes...see HERE reply # 42 and kaybee's explanation @ reply # 43.

I wasn't aware of this problem so I removed one of the nuts off my FJ sedan (that have NEVER worked themselves loose) and fitted it to the wheel with the larger whole, it doesn't bottom out... the nut has a very shallow taper on it.
So maybe the FJ nut was made to fit both but the FX nut only fits the FX ….. I would have thought it would be the other way around

Goes without saying that nuts off any other car would be very risky.

Cobber.

[retro64]

Hi Stevenm,

Most importantly glad to hear that you all walked away safely,
sorry about your van, as you say, mostly cosmetic, but a nasty shock just the same.
We hope that after an appropriate period of rest you ease yourself into the repairs you need and enjoy your lovely vv and ek combo again, this time with the added confidence that you've addressed the unforseen problem you had.

All the best from us,
retro64

[kaybee]

Hmm...didn't believe me ,eh, Cobber? ;D.....even if the nut doesn't bottom out ( and that might be because your wheels haven't been on and off a million times like high mileage items)......the tapers still don't match which means a very small contact area which will eventually fail and give the unpleasant result that Steven had. Holden did it again after HK , changed to a much steeper taper from HT onwards , so watch out for nuts that sit way down in the hole. The other thing that can cause problems like this is powder coating the wheels and even a heavy coat of 2 pack....you need to scrape away the p/coat or paint, right back to bare steel where the wheelnuts sit and also on the backside where the wheel fits to the drum/hub/disc.....otherwise the wheel crushes up against the coating and it breaks up and wears away ,leaving the nuts effectively loose.....

[stevenm]

Yep i agree that the problem was the wrong wheel nuts. Heard the same story now from a few people since the incident (wish i learnt this before the trip )

Rather than muck around with second hand rims i ordered new smoothie rims from Rocket Industries. Painted them this monring so i can get the tyres fitted next week. I went this way cause they are multi fit Ford/Chev pattern and will suit either of my hotrods i'm building.
The new axle will hopefully be ready on Tuesday. Waiting for the brake controller to arrive (hopefully it arrives next week so i can fit it at night after work).

[beetlesbailey]

Hi all, In 76 I had a similar problem with a 66 F100 left rear wheel that flogged out 2 wheels.
i eventually found that when I tightaned the nuts I had to MAKE SURE THAT THE RIM CENTRED ON THE STUD.
If I didn't lift the wheel to centre it then I would find the wheel off centre after I finished tightening it. Even with a long bar for leverage it still hung on the stud and tightened there.
I also found a few years ago on other powdercoated rims that the coating was rubbed into 'balls ' and the wheel was not very tight. So this confirms Kaybee's statement.
This has happened on a number of my rims so I (we) should ALL check our rims.
Beetles

[millsy]

Had the same thing happen to me in '83 while on our honeymoon trip. Was towing a 16 footer aluminium van behind our trusty LX Torana. We had travelled from Riverton, across to Blanchtown, and thenfollowed the River Murray up to its source, over the Great Divide and up the coast to have Xmas in a national park just on the outskirts of Northern Sydney suburbs. Kuringai Chase I think it was called.

Then down the Hume to Melton, just west of Melbourne.

Luckily I was only doing about 40km/hr in a back street when I spotted a wheel overtaking me down the middle of the street. The wheel that had just fallen off the van hitched on behind! Very lucky no cars coming the other way!

Yes, the wheel nuts were too small for the holes in the rims. Amazing that they lasted that long. No damage done to the van.

Also reminds me of when my old bond wood van jumped off the ball when we hit an expansion joint on the Blanchtown bridge over the Murray. We were doing about 85km/hr at the time. A bit scary when you are on a narrow bridge, 100 feet above the water, and the van is skidding around the highway, side to side, behind the car, with only the chains keeping it behind the car. And the effect of this on the back of the car giving merry hell to the steering effort!

Good thing the chains were long enough to let the A frame slide on the bitumen I suppose, because that kept the van from bashing into the car.

I hooked her back on and went slowly back to a servo not far from the bridge. Had a chat with the mechanic there about the problem, and found that the van needed a 2 1/4 inch towball, not a 2 1/8 as I had thought all this time! And he happened to have a spare one in his junk box!

[stevenm]

yeah scary stuff

fortunatly we are back on the road, been on 2 trips since I fitted a new axle with electric brakes. Has made the van a completely different van to tow. The subframe and inner wheel arch are still all bent but externally it all looks acceptable enough.... one day when i get a spare moment i'll fix it up.
Next time i resto another van i'll be fitting new axle and wheel straight up.

this is our van with the new wheels etc. we decided to fit a set of multi fit smoothie rims (cheap as chips to buy) and we could reuse the tyre as the rims are 15's like the old FJ rims, but more so they are ford/chev stud pattern to fit most wheel combos on hotrods. And we fitted a set of flappers to give it the whitewall look...

[millsy]

Good work there, with the new axle and brakes. That's a really spiffy little rig you have there. Love those reflections in the mirror like gloss you have there!

I will be starting to do up one of my vintage vans soon, when I retire in about 145.3 days , and I could well do the same thing. I tried finding a spare wheel for it back in the seventies and had no luck after visiting lots of wreckers.

I did up my very old sailing dinghy. Four years of work just in that, but loved every minute of it. And then finally got around to do the trailer. They were both built in the fifties I thinkm maybe even earlier - lots of rotten wood and rusty iron in the trailer. I found that the wheel bearings were going to cost me $140 for a pair. Very rare. And I suspect the van's bearings will be the same, or a lot worse!

It only cost me about $130 to get a new axle for the boat trailer, complete with hubs to suit more modern rims. So I will probably end up doing the same with the van.

But two issues to work out. The van has a drop axle, so if I just get a straight axle its going to pop it up a lot higher. Stability issues maybe. And I am not sue how much its going to cost for electric brakes. The van currently has mechanical/cable brakes. They always performed well, but it has been off the road now for about 18 years!

[stevenm]

thanks millsy ;D yeah the paint isn't as good as that deceiving reflection may have you believe the joys of painting in the backyard (our neighbours have rows of eucalyptus trees shedding flowers/pollen all day).

as for the axle - new bearings to suit our old axle were well into the $300 per side as we had and early holden hubs.
the new axle complete with brakes was only about $550 so it was a no brainer for us. that said the brake controller cost another $100 plus my time to fit it to the old EK. Personally i've had both electric brakes and mechanical on different trailers etc and there is no way on this earth that i'd choose mechanical over electrics.
Yeah our old axle was a dropped axle too, but it went under the springs. turns out the spring pack depth was identical to the depth of the axle drop so we just put a straight axle in and have run it axle over springs (not under). so we ended up with the exact ride height we had originally.
I have found that even though the ride height hasn't changed the van is much more stable now running the new axle... i have no idea why but before with the old axle the EK only felt safe towing the van at 45-50MPH... now i can sit on 60MPH all day in the EK. Infact we took our van to a remote camp ground a few weeks back behind our 4x4 and it towed brilliantly along the rough roads in and out.

best of luck with ya resto.. and rember we love heaps of pictures ;D ;D

[millsy]

Thanks for all the info Steven. Gives me an idea of what I need to put in the piggy bank. I just checked the set up. The drop axle already sits on top of the springs! So there goes that idea.

Anyway, first job will be to pull out the old bearings and take them down to CBC and see what they have and what they cost.

The van is quite low at the back anyway, so a straight axle, still on top of the springs, might give it some extra clearance to get through the rough stuff behind the Patrol. I do like to get out in the bush a bit. Actually have headed bush regularly every 12 weeks for the last three years! Have alwyas slept in the car, at window height, so it will be luxury to sleep in the privacy of a caravan!

If you want to see what I am playing with I put quite a few pics and info up this morning. See the thread called 'New Member form Adelaide'. It's on the Home Page in the General area - posts after 2008'. Not far from top.

By the way, your EK sure does make me wish I still had my beautiful FB. It was gunbarrel grey, almost like yours. I think mine was just a shade lighter. Mine might even have been an EK too, because I dropped in on an EK /FB meet on the weekend. My first car was definitely the EK, with the two tone paint job - green body and white roof. Had it for 10 years before it rusted out. Loved it so much I spotted this gorgeous FB in Freeman Motors car yard. Only $1000 and looked as new. But as I said, it looked just like your EK. No chrome stripe up the side, and just plain grey all over. I asked the guys at the meet what the difference was. They said the FB had the vertical grill slits for the cabin air intake under the windscreen, while the EK had the long horizontal intake grill. Too long ago for me to remember.

Only had it a year. Soon after I bought it the motor 'blew up'. Cannot remember the symptoms now, since it was back in '82. The car cost me $1000 and three weeks later I had to spend another $1000 to have a reconditioned motor fitted.

The local 'copper' said I should not be driving the car. He was a restorer of old Holdens himself. A fanatic for detail. he had a close look at the glossy paintwork and could not pick any hint of overspray. And all the window rubbers, and door seals, were all like new as well!

It was too good to be driven he said. It needed to be preserved in a shed, up on axle stands! But I was too young to value vintage vehicles. I had bought it to drive, and tow my glider to all the comps.

That motor only lasted 12 months and it dropped a big end one night, out in the 'sticks' north of the Barossa. I was so angry I just slept the night at the gliding club, and next morning limped it back to the nearest dealer in Nuriootpa and traded it in on a nice Torana. That car lasted me for twenty five years and 450,000km before my son wrote it off for me!

About 3 years after I had parted with the beautiful FB (EK?) I saw it on a front lawn in a side street in Nuriootpa. The lady of the house told me that her husband, a panel beater and a spray painter by trade, could not believe the condition of the car. Neither could I, or my policeman friend.

The first thing I did when I bought it was to climb under it to give it some anti-rust fishoil treatment. I found the whole underside of all panels, especially the front fenders, just like new. As if it had just rolled out of the showroom. And the car was already 22 years old! One day I might bump into it again to see how it is 'travelling'.

So it's good to see that you are enjoying a great EK there too. They sure have heaps of space inside. Especially between driver and windscreen. They don't make them like that anymore!

What's the story with yours? Had it long? Did you restore it yourself, or have it painted? Or were you lucky to pick it up as is?

Now I look at your pics again I see that your's is actually blue, not grey. Oops.

Cheers, Millsy.

[stevenm]

Aug 11, 2011 22:45:06 GMT 10 millsy said:

So it's good to see that you are enjoying a great EK there too. They sure have heaps of space inside. Especially between driver and windscreen. They don't make them like that anymore!

What's the story with yours? Had it long? Did you restore it yourself, or have it painted? Or were you lucky to pick it up as is?

Cheers, Millsy.

No we haven't had it long at all, I picked the EK up February thsi year. It was unregistered and needed a bit of elbow grease to get rego. So I fitted all new suspenion bushes, shockies etc etc, rebuilt the brakes and clutch hydraulics, had a new exhaust fitted, touched up some rust sections. The seats were stuffed and it had no carpet so we had the seats retrimmed in white leather and we fitted new carpets, repalced a few door/window rubber too whiel were at it.Thats all we have done to it apart from drive the wheels off it since.....
It's currently off the road with a blown gearbox - thanks to towing the vintage van up the Toowoomba Range. I have teh replacement gearbox here ready to go (along with a new clutch) so its just a matter of me getting some time off work to fit it all.