Holden Grey motors

[humpyboy]

I have a small problem with my Grey motor let me explain (please) I have the motor for the Ute I'm building, I takes it over to my mates house where there is always motors in some state of repair/rebuild, we get it running on the engine stand but still decide to rebuild it, with me so far guys? so we do all the stuff that you do to rebuild an engine,bearings,rings,gaskets etc etc, you get the idea, the only thing we didn't re-use off the old motor was the head (my mate had a reconditioned one we used instead) so we get it all back together but now it wont run , now here's the weird bit on why it wont run, it sucks the air IN through the exhaust and blows it OUT through the carbie, WHAT THE !!!!!!!!!

Any ideas guys?
we have tried everything we can think of but it still wont go.

[humpty2]

It sounds like your cam is out 180 deg.
Did you fit it by the book?

[robbo3]

Aug 21, 2010 18:01:11 GMT 10 humpyboy said:

I have a small problem with my Grey motor let me explain (please) I have the motor for the Ute I'm building, I takes it over to my mates house where there is always motors in some state of repair/rebuild, we get it running on the engine stand but still decide to rebuild it, with me so far guys? so we do all the stuff that you do to rebuild an engine,bearings,rings,gaskets etc etc, you get the idea, the only thing we didn't re-use off the old motor was the head (my mate had a reconditioned one we used instead) so we get it all back together but now it wont run , now here's the weird bit on why it wont run, it sucks the air IN through the exhaust and blows it OUT through the carbie, WHAT THE !!!!!!!!!

Any ideas guys?
we have tried everything we can think of but it still wont go.

Cam timing for sure.

[humpyboy]

Yeah thats what we thought also so today we pulled it out and turned it 180 deg but it still did the same, my mate just rang me and he has spoken to a mate of his who said that he must have got it 180 deg out again so the pair of them will come over and have a look at some stage and before anyone asks they are both mechanics and both build and race grey motor powered cars, Hmmmm maybe that's why they don't win ;D

[humpty2]

Have you checked that the valves........both inlet and outlet are closing.

[humpyboy]

Checked all valves and they all open and close, spent some time last night deep in thought and tomorrow I pull out the cam shaft again, I suspect that either the gear has been mounted in reverse and marked incorrectly or maybe even the keyway was incorrectly cut Soooo it's out with the cam set the engine as per the book then look at the first two lobes and refit the cam regardless of where the mark might be and see how we go, will let you all know the outcome.

[humpyboy]

Canadian blocks? just a furphy me thinks, I have yet to see one.

[JBJ]

Hi All,

I've been playing with old cars since around 10, so that was in the late 50's. I guess that makes me a genuine old fart petrol head.
I can remember discussions of Canadian blocks being found in real early 48-215's before I got my licence in 1964.

From memory the first batch of engines were supposedly made in Canada, & the cylinder walls were supposedly thicker than the FJ blocks made in Australia, & supposedly would take a 3 1/4" or ( very risky & rarely) 3 5/16" bore & still survive.
I remember some 3 5/16" engines being used in speedway sprint cars at Sydney Showground when I went there on the occassional Saturday night. We always sucked our way into the pits if we could, & naturally discussed engines.

I remember a guy I worshipped built a 3 1/4" bore motor with a Repco Head & twin carbs, with an MGTC box. It was the hottest thing in Wollongong in the early 60's. His parents owned Guests Speed shop, just up from the hospital on the the Southern side of the road. It was a gorgeous black FJ, with chromed wide rims & Pirellis.

Just up the road from a maroon & silver 58 packard Golden Hawk Coupe, with a Paxton blown 352 engine( I think), that ended up with dribble stains all over it every time it came out of its garage.

I digress, but I guess the Canadian Block thing may never be proven, but I see no reason for the rumour to have been started back in the early 60's if not true.

Memories are great, & one day they are probably all we will have

JBJ

[nugget]

G'day all. ;D

The Canadian block myth I love it . I'm doing up a 138 grey motor also. for the ek, I brought an old EJ for parts for my mates eh (doors etc) and the motor for parts for me.


I also brought a B block (as this was the serial numbers originally fitted to ek's) off the guy with good never bored cylinders ( I checked on specs) there appears to be little to no wear (no lip) and only needs a bath and the cylinders honed to replace with new standard sized pistons. Looking through his bits I saw a block he said was a a head of a canadian block

I am a member of the vic fb ek forum and started looking into these mysterious Canadian blocks.

What I worked out is that it would have been un-economical, impractical, and no records exist that any 138 blocks were ever manufactured or exported from Canada, during the 40's or 50's when these blocks were supposed to be made. There is some vague reference that some casts were made in canada but this is unlikely as they had only 2 capable foundries that could make precision blocks of the quality these blocks were. These foundries were apparently flat out meeting the canadian market.

As I'm no expert on Holden history I checked out this further. What I could gather is that most of the FX components were manufactured in the US and assembled in Australia. As a lot of major Australian foundries were also committed to war efforts in the 40's some of the engine blocks were subcontracted out to some smaller foundries through GM in the US.

Although the blocks were essentially identical to the Australian cast block, due to more precise casting and centering of cylinders techniques in the US these were able to be bored to fit large pistons and often held out longer before blowing the water casing than the Australian motor bored to the same size.

Some of the features of the blocks include-

-an extra welsh plug (enables better extraction of sand after cast cools, better techniques)

-some have a maple leaf like symbol (which is often why theses are called a canadian block) this was a small US foundry mark contracted to GM US and not a Canadian foundry mark.

- thicker block . This is correct a thicker block, even though it is identical in specs to the Aussie 138. Due to the better techniques in centering and stability of the sand cast moulds used in the US manufactured blocks. As these are thicker they can be bored to larger sizes required by speedway cars of the day while maintaining the water casing integrity, ie, they don't blow up as quick .
This is why they are preferred by speedway racers and mechanics who want to blow them out as big as they can.

So, I may be a bit sketchy on some of the details but that is essentially the story I can find my research on it if any one interested as I spent hours researching this.

Yet, I also stand to be corrected or enlightened if anyone has a different theory on the Canadian block, but in my mind it's MTYH BUSTED ;D ;D ;D

Nugget ;D

[kaybee]

Hiya Derk,before you dismember the engine again,here's a quick simple way to check the valve timing.....works best if the plugs are out and the distributor cap is off.......roll the crank around until the timing mark comes up on the flywheel and the rotor button points to the mark on the dissy case that signifies No1.......with the valve cover off, rock the crank back and forth slightly.....you should get movement of the valves on No6, each way you move the crank,one or the other of those valves will"rock".....that is a close enough way to tell if the cam timing is right. If those valves on No6 aren't moving ,then it's not on No1 firing position and it won't run. If in that position you get the valves on No1 rocking , you are 180 degrees out in your distributor timing ,so just re-time the distributor so that it points to No 1 when the valves on 6 are rocking . Have fun.....Col.

[Daggsey]

Just happen to be in Toronto......see what I can find out about Canadian grey motors ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Daggsey

[cobber]

G'day Kaybee,

So to boil it down to basics what you're saying is maybe there is a possibility that it is possible that maybe the distributor shaft tongue has been inserted in the oil pump drive slot 180° out of wack.... that would do it aye?

Cobber.

Oh OK .... I just re-read the original post...it's sucking through the exhaust and blowing through the inlet.... not good.

It has to be the timing gears.... there should be dots on both the camshaft and crankshaft gears that should line up when assembled.... gotta be.

Cobber.

[kaybee]

Aug 23, 2010 9:46:26 GMT 10 Daggsey said:

Just happen to be in Toronto......see what I can find out about Canadian grey motors ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Daggsey

....they'll probably say "what's a grey motor"...... ;D ;D

[kaybee]

Aug 23, 2010 10:27:07 GMT 10 cobber said:

G'day Kaybee,

So to boil it down to basics what you're saying is maybe there is a possibility that it is possible that maybe the distributor shaft tongue has been inserted in the oil pump drive slot 180° out of wack.... that would do it aye?

Cobber.

it's possible....certainly pays to check the basics before going in deep.......look a bit silly if you pull it all apart ,find nothing wrong ,then it turns out to be something simple that's accessed from the "top".....seen it done lots of times ;D....also pays to make sure that the valve clearances are right too ,if they are too tight it'll huff and puff and spit fire back at you . ;D

[DC3Td]

If Daggseys in Toronto,(Nookastle that is),guess he`s in the Territory of Reddotel. That can only mean he & former "holdin`it together" afficionado might come up with a relevant answer to Humpyboys predicament. Ok, back to my Black Barrel Bourbon. cheers gordon

[nugget]

Hey Humpy,

Dunno if this helps




Good luck Nugget ;D

[humpyboy]

Hi all, well went out in the shed the other day thinking thinking pulling apart yet again pull the cam out look at the first two lobes and figure this is how it should go in pop it back in then turn it all over by hand and BUGGER me the bloody marks line up again so no change to the way things were spent some more time thinking (my head hurts now) remembered that in the back of a cupboard was a set of Alloy gears that I bought years ago so decided that I would pull off the timing gear cover AGAIN and check the mark against the mark on the Alloy set Hmmmmm about 45 deg out so I have a gentle scrape at this point on the gear and low and behold a very faint "o" hardly visible but I can just make it out so I, yes your all correct, I pull it all apart yet again (can do this in my sleep now) reposition the cam to my new found point and BINGO sucks and blows the right way now, battery back on the charger and will make an attempt at starting it with a little more confidence now.
My apologies I forgot to thank one and all for your input.

[humpyboy]

Well I have just got home from a day out and went straight to the shed,
SHE LIVES and breaths fire like a trooper, damn that mark, look out who ever it was who put it there.

[humpyboy]

Well I have talked with my mate and he seems to think that the cam gear may have been made as a multi fit item, my question now is does anyone know if this is a possibility?

[nugget]

Hey Humpy,

The old cam timing gears are ceramic fibre I'm pretty sure You can replace them with a non ceramic alternative.

I'm replacing mine as I've heard they can get brittle over 50 years.

Before you remove measure your gap between thrust plate and cam gear also the front bearing and retaining plate gap (wing shape), write them down (or check specs). You need to press the old gear off the cam shaft and remove the retaining plate. Then remove woodruff key and oil slinger. You then need to pull the gear off the shaft (you may need a special puller for this). Not sure if the cox head harmonic balance pullers can pull this off

Replacing you need to make sure you realign the oil lube hole with your slinger and it is in the same direction as it was removed. also check the gap between your thrust plate and gear and also front bearing journal.

Most importantly line up your timing holes... Its stops it sucking in the exhuast ;D ;D ;D ;D

Not an expert humpy just battled through it myself, and you may have to check your clearance specs. I've found the Gregory's Holden manual is a real good guide and got this info from there.

So, yes they can be replaced with non ceramic fibre timing gear if this is what you mean by multifit. . I'm getting the mechanic that is honing my block and replacing valves & guides (to 186 valves) to source the timing gear so not sure what to suggest .


Hope it helps Nugget ;D

[humpyboy]

Thanks for all the details nugget, all three workshop manuals I have say the same thing ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D , on the multi fit thing, I refer to the possibility that the gear may have been made to fit other engines hence the extra mark and as for running the old fibre gear, unless the cam was to seize for some reason then it should be okay to run with the old one or at least I am happy to, I've still got that alloy set in the cupboard I have heard that the alloy gears can make a bit of noise so I'll only use them when I really need to.

[Geoff & Jude]

hi humpy

just a bit of useless info.

when i was much younger i had a grey bored out to 3 1/8", cammed up with bigger valves and double valve springs, triple su's, etc.

with these sort of mods the fibre gear was often replaced with the ally one because the fibre couldn't take the extra loads placed on it by the double springs and high lift cam.

the ally ones were a bit noisy but they kept on keeping on.

geoff

[humpyboy]

Yeah your probably right there Geoff but mine being bog standard with the soft single springs shouldn't pose to much of a problem me thinks or at least I hope not ;D, just waiting for some nice weather so that I can paint her up before I drop her back in.

[Deleted]

Hi Humpyboy
What price originality??

My adice is fit the alloy timing gear while you have the opportunity.
The noise level difference between a stock and alloy gear is hardly noticeable.
I have sen a lot of FB Holden strip this gear on long trips or under load when towing.. aka the motor is working hard.

Always seem to stip at the most inconvenient time and in the most inconvenient location .. thus spoiling the trip and causing all sorts of hassles trucking/ towing the car home.

Holden went to alloy timing gears for this very reason.

99% of the people who will look at your car ( and listen to it ) wont pick the alloy timing gear noise.
I had one on the green EK ute. could barely hear it.'

So.. Reliability... or ...originality??

Just do it mate.
Reddo

[humpyboy]

I hear you reddo but given the amount of times that I've pulled this thing apart I'm not in a hurry to do it again, I just want to get this thing painted and dropped back in the car, the rebuild of this engine has gone on for around 2 years now ( long story) so I'm keen to get it back in so that I can get the car finished and on the road, my sedan still has the fibre gear in it for around 16 years since I finished the rebuild and it's still holding together even with the caning I give it from time to time, besides the sooner I finish me Ute the sooner I can start me panel van, god I'm a gluton for punishment.