what can cause a wheel to fall off?

[Deleted]

Yesterday, I posted a "tounge in cheek ;D" post about a dilemna I had a couple of weeks ago.

vintagecaravans.proboards30.com/index.cgi?board=general08&action=display&thread=2668

I was returning our Rowvan back to the Beverley shed from home when about 25kms out of York, the RH wheel came off the caravan I was doing about 100 kph when it happened, fortunately I was driving a modern tow car, with a big weight difference to the caravan (1500 kg car 800 kg caravan), consequently the caravan dropping onto its spring at that speed didn't unsettle the car greatly, and I was able to safely tow the caravan to a stop, then drag it off the side of the road.......gave me one helluva fright but

The reason for the wheel coming off was an improper fit, as the following pics will show.

Col (kaybee) suggested we discuss this, and hopefully avoid a similar incident happening to other vintage vanners. After all, our caravans are old, and possibly have had wheel changes ......






the parting wheel tore out the wheel arch
the "U" bolt was also snapped





a difficult manouvre to drag the caravan onto the truck, using the winch .....the steel springs tearing into the truck's ali ramps .....





the wheel showing clear signs of whats happened .....it took some time to locate the wheel in the surrounding bush





a very lopsided Rowvan on the truck







Mark T(hrillseeker)

[Daggsey]

G'day Mark,

Good thread as far as safety is concerned.

I put these photos on "Lady Madonna's Travels" thread, but for those who missed it.........this wheel didn't come off, but inside rim actually collapsed, probably for 2 reasons:

1. Age......40 year old rim with maturity setting in ;D ;D (called rust in cars other than Holden's ;D ;D ;D)

2. Left hand rim on van......cops most abuse, especially if going off the edge of bitumen on a regular basis....................







Pretty hard to pick if rim looks OK, but worth checking anyway.

Daggsey

[Deleted]

yeah Daggsey, a bloke that does some welding work for me, and designs & builds trailers for a living, won't use old wheels and hubs.

Hillbilly (Ian) took his little 10' 1959 Modern caravan there to have the caravan taken up a couple of inches .....it sat far too low ....couldn't change a wheel, anyway when he picked it up, the old axle hubs and wheels had gone Instead his 1959 caravan was wearing Missabitchy Magna wheels


Mark

[mpower]

A question to members. It has been mentioned to me that modern car rims are unsuitable for caravans as they are not as strong. Four rims to accept the weight of a car where as only two support a caravan thus caravan wheels are specifically constructed to a higher weight bearing tolerance. Is this correct?

Mark and Maureen

Bendigo

[lazza]

From my experience the wheel that came off of mark's caravan has done so because the wheel nuts were slightly loose allowing the wheel to get chewed out arround the stud holes.Could have been caused by an ill fitting wheel as well The unusual thing is that normally the studs would have been sheared off as well as the holes being worn larger, cheers lazza

[JBJ]

Thanks Kaybee,

Thats good advice for everyone to consider, & hopefully act on.

When I got the 16"Chev wheels for Lucille powdercoated, they sandblasted them first. They had a bit of pitting in spots, but not enough to concern me. I've looked at old vans in paddocks where the wheel had rusted thru like Daggsey's, so everyone should have a look if they haven't already done so during the last fitting of tyres.

You all did check your tyres off the wheels, didnt you???


Jailbarjuice

[Deleted]

Thanks for that col.

Can i add the importance of a hub cap to your list .

When i rescued that sunliner from down in Orange NSW a year or so back . i was heading home and swung into a servo . i could here a clunking noise as i slowed down. Pulled the cap off and there was 2 wheel nuts sitting in there. other three where tight.
It was then i remebered old mate that i bought it off telling me he had change the wheel the dasy before.
He missed tightening two of them. Luckily the cap caught em . Also could have been a lot worse if he hadnt tightened any of em properly.
Always check the nuts are tight after you let the van back down on its wheels. While it is in the air on the jack you can not tighten them up sufficiently.

Likewise if towing home a new acquisition take the time to knock the grease cap off the hub and check that the split pin is through the castillated wheel bearing nut.... dont laugh . i checked the wheel nuts on a demolished van i bought in Kariong years ago. all was good. then i noticed grease on the rim and asked the seller if he had been adjusting the bearings . He replied they where sweet. He checked them yesterday. I dug the cap off and there was no split pin through the nut... never trust any backyard mechanics handiwork.

New rims can come loose as well. I bought a set of new white "Sunrasia" rims for a 4x4 i had a while back.
Tyre service rattled them on with thier air gun. drove 100ks and checked the nuts . all took a half turn to tighten up properly. Bedding in and paint can cause this.

I have 2 X 14" morris rims and 2 X17" 1930s 4 stud spoked rims at the sandblasters at the moment. PCD measurements are the same but the 17s have a bigger hole through the rim. I will try them for clearance / hieght on "Rosie" when she is back on her suspension. If all is good i will get a set of wheel nuts machined up with the larger hex size to suit the 17s and thier nut taper and have them tapped out to suit the smaller Morris thread .

Its either that or get bigger wheel studs same as the original 17s pressed into the existing Morris .
hub .
If extra care is taken to ensure taper is correct this should be ok ... your thoughts Col.

I suppose a bloke should just give up on the wire wheels idea and stick with the Morris rims.... naaa then the van would be original .

Reddo

[Daggsey]

Good points made by Kaybee about stud holes getting flogged out and Jailbar's about sandblasting old rims. That was one of the things I didn't do before leaving on this trip.....I was more pre-occupied with having new tyres fitted.

Purchasing new rims (in my case, anyway) was not an issue......$60 each for 2 brand new 13" Holden ROH rims (they have "made in Australia" stamped on them). The only issue now is keeping my hubcaps on......they are very tight and one actually came off, luckily at low speed in a built up area so I retrieved it. I have left both off since (FC hubcaps, so don't want to lose them). Probably a bit off thread, but has anyone got any ideas here on how to keep hubcaps on new rims??

I guess one advantage of not having hubcaps on is that you can feel quite easily if the hub is getting hot if a wheelbearing is worn or not adjusted properly. Shouldn't be an issue if everything has been adjusted correctly.

Daggsey

[Deleted]

Hi Daggsey

Your lucky those new rims have anything to hold the hub cap on. Most after market rims like ROH dont even have the 3 bumps to hold the cap. They are marketed for boat trailer and box trailers .

I have seen a lot of old vans with the hub centres sticking way out past the centre of the rim. Even the original hub cap would be hard pressed fitting over the hub and being secured on the holding lugs tags properly.

Reddo

Reddo

[willyn]

;D
Maybe I have a penchant for wheels but that is the first thing I do when I get a new van or car
the hitch bearings tyres and rims and lights checked by a professional

when I purchased my Airstream the previous owners had original wheels on it with 90 percent tread and I had them removed
Colin contacted Airstream for me and I had a dealership replace them with the reccomended tyres and rims

If I am towing a 24 ft Vintage Van anywhere I need it behind me with secure knowledge that those 5 things have been either checked or replaced
basically it boils down to negligence if it isnt done
I have replaced 3 axles on my vin vans and countless rims and tyres
the consequences of personal injury as well as injuring others have to be taken into account when making a judgement on keeping original Vintage rims compared with changing them for a generic copy or similiar
my opinion is just like the Bee Gees sang
Stayin alive ah ah ah ah stayin alive
thats the way I would like to keep it

Will and Lyn
ps Mark I followed that Van across Australia
I could have ended up with a 5 stud steering wheel or a 5 stud bonnet emblem

[minicamper]

Whilst we're talking safety, I'll add a story of what happened to my brothers, touring Oz about 20 yrs ago.

We had always maintained our Jayco camper trailer, but nearing the end of their trip, they hit a pothole.

The u bolt holding the axle to the spring had worked loose, the pothole gave the wheel a rearwards bash, this yanked the axle slightly. Having cable overrun brakes, the axle shifting back slightly, pulled on the brake on one wheel, which yanked the axle further and the chain reaction in a matter of seconds ripped the axle out, so that the good side was now facing inboard at about 45 degrees and the side at fault was sticking out the back of the van, bent the A frame and all.

Fortunately mum had increased the insurance and RACV came to the rescue and resurrected the Jayco. It went on for many years, but was never really ever the same.

All because of nuts that loosened on the u bolts..

Basically gents, as the doctors always say...

Check your nuts regularly!

[tonyh]

The other thing to check is that the wheel should locate on the hub center and the wheel nuts are to hold the wheel on - not to carry the load.
A tandem car trailer I owned for years with early Holden FB hubs, brakes and wheels with no problems was sold and the new owner fitted HK wheels (the HK wheels have a larger hub hole) and had ongoing wheel center damage and wheel loss issues until fitting larger studs to carry the weight - not the way to go - Either fit the correct wheels for the hubs or turn up a spacer to make up the difference (wheel shops have some already made up)
Cheers, tonyh

[JBJ]

Hi Kaybee,

I was going to post these pix originally to show minicamper the difference between the Al-Ko brake/hub unit, & the late 30's Chev 6 stud wheels.




The wheel stud hole in the chev wheel is a pretty neat fit size wise, & the taper for the nut is small. The wheel nuts provided seem adequate in size to hold the wheel securely.

I thought the same as you about the difference in centre hole/hub sizes, because of FJ, VW, etc.

Do you think I should have to bother to get a machined spacer to take up the opening??

My rationale says I should not have any problems

Jailbarjuice

[tonyh]

Hi Kaybee,

It appears we are both not quite right. I found this article about "Static Friction" by Texas Speedwerks

www.txwerks.com/images/Install_Docs/Wheel%20Stud-Nut%20Installation%20Notes.pdf

Additional Information:
Unbelievable as it may sound, the interface between the wheel and the hub carries the load. That's right,
the vertical planes which contact each other transfer all shear loads by static friction. The source of the
static friction is the compression imparted by the fasteners (lug bolts or studs). Tensile loads are taken
directly by reducing the spring force stored in the flange compression, that is, the loads tend to reduce the
compression between the flanges that is set up by the bolts. Since the bolts have a far smaller crosssectional
area than the flange faces (even collectively), they have a much smaller spring constant, so the
force they contribute to the joint varies far less per unit distance than the flange compression. In other
words, the forces due to lug tightening stay fairly constant as the load varies across the flanges. This is
why your wheels don't fall off around a corner.
However, it IS the reason why some folks know someone whose wheels fell off after they lubricated the
studs or bolt holes. If a little bit of lubricant gets between the wheel and the hub, then the friction between
the two goes down, sometimes a LOT. In that case, the bolts cannot set up enough static friction between
them, and the joint can slip, resulting in a high-powered tricycle adventure. Remember to keep the
threads oiled and the flanges clean!
There's a lot more to the basic "four lugs and a wheel" interface than meets the eye, and nearly everyone
misunderstands how it all works. This is why a thin layer of grime can cause a wheel to shear off, or why
a wheel that is properly centered (by luck or by a really good cone lug fit) doesn't need centering rings.
Centering rings only center the wheel during installation, and neither a centering ring nor wheel
bolts/studs should carry a load

All good info, Cheers, tonyh

[tonyh]

A little pedantic

I didn't write the article, it is directly from that link, and you seem to be taking this personally.
I have been around the engineering and mechanical game for over forty years and am still learning every day from people in all walks of life including this great website and only add my bit to try and help.
So I don't quite know what your reply was all about.

[JBJ]

OK you guys,


I spent most of life ( I'm 60) building cars & working in mechanical related fields, from apprentice up to pretty senior management in mining engineering department with a bucket full of trades people under my control.

I know one of you personally, & both by your good reputation in the automotive game.

One thing I learnt a long time back, is that an expert is just that. X means an unknown quantity, & spurt means a drip under pressure.

That thing you posted, Tony, was an experts opinion, & nothing more.

To me it was a load of crap, but obviously it meant a lot to the guy that wrote it.

In any field, theres always someone that knows more than the other. Lifes too short to argue over some cowboys interpretation of something.


One of the the great things this forum provides is the opportunity
to express an opinion. BUT when you do, any other person has the same right to bag your thoughts & beliefs just as strongly. Back off, have whatever you have to forget the crap, & think fresh about it tomorrow. I dont want two guys I respect arguing over some Yankees bullshit ideas & beliefs.

Jailbarjuice

[Daggsey]

This is all interesting stuff, but let's hope the wheels don't fall off this thread .........we're talking common sense and safety issues here and it's a pretty important topic........us basic signwriters aren't rocket scientists, we just want to travel around Oz and do it with fun and the knowledge that everything is gunna stay together ;D ;D ;D.

Daggsey
Roaming around Roma

[tonyh]

Naaaah Kaybee, no need for sorry I was just trin' to help and got grumpy - Since JBJ's clip in the ear, I'm goin' to the shed to work on Blondie (the Olympic) ;D ;D

Cheers, TonyH

[Deleted]

G'day Col,
a month or so ago on this thread, you were talking about Holden FX / FJ wheel nuts ........quote:


This nut thru the wheel trick can also be caused by the wrong wheel nuts....for example, Holden used 2 different tapered nuts between FJ and FX series, to be used on different wheels. It's a little hard to visually pick the wheels as being different...especially if you never had any idea that such a dumb thing could happen and so you never even thought it necessary to check...the nuts are pretty easy to spot, early ones are a bigger hex ,7/8" versus the later 3/4". BUT...if you use the later nuts on the early wheel, they sit down in the taper and bottom out, so the wheel is not securely clamped to the drum...and the wheel eventually comes off. Lots of old vans use FX-FJ wheels, so it's worth finding what's what, if you have them on yours.[/b]



The lil bondy I'm restoring came with both size nuts, 2 large & 3 small on each wheel (dodgy !!) ....and you maybe able to help me by identifying this rim ...... and tellin' me which nuts it should have









also .......do you have anymore of these lights in stock please:






thanks

Mark