My new purchase - a 1966 Viscount Valiant?

[retrotimes]

Hi All 

I've just joined, thanks for having me! I've been wanting a vintage van for about 7 years and can finally justify it. We paid our deposit last night and will pick it up next week! I can see how helpful this forum is and I'm really hoping to tap into all the combined expertise, and hopefully eventual contribute as I learn more! 

OK first challenge for those willing! It doesn't have the original A Frame and the fellow who I am buying it off didn't see any dates internally when he refurbished it recently. He advertised it as a Ambassador as it is says that on the registration papers he got when he purchased it at auction. The QLD Motor registry has it registered as Jan 1966 Viscount Ambassador, with a chassis number TR410079940. 
From trawling through old threads on this forum I can see that it must have been incorrectly registered as a Ambassador as it closely matches the Valiants shown. You can see this in the comparison below with one that Dave and Tammy had put up (mine on the right). 

Secondly the chassis number doesn't appear to match the Viscount numbering system, and the Motor Registry have assured the current owner that this is a chassis number and not a VIN number that was allocated. I'm assuming that the chassis must have been changed even earlier than the recent change that the current owner made, and it was allocated a new chassis number before the longer VIN numbers came about? 

Any thoughts are much appreciated, as my next challenge is installing decals as close as possible to the originals. I'll save that for another thread! 

Thanks
Steve 

Dave&Tammy's and Our Van by Steven Cox, on Flickr

[Don Ricardo]

Hi Retrotimes,

Welcome to the forum, and congratulations on your purchase. Your van looks like it’s in pretty good nick, although obviously I don’t know what it’s like inside. Hopefully it will give you much joy, as do whatever you need to it and then travel with it.

Forum member Twocutekelpies will be able to help you most regarding your van’s identity, and hopefully she will find your post before too long. She’s the person on the forum with the most knowledge about Viscount models, etc. However, I’ll start off with a few comments that may help you...

First, even though there is a similarity between your van and Dave and Tammy’s (although I will comment on that below), your van may still be an Ambassador model. From the early 60’s Viscount offered three model ranges. The Valiant was the cheapest budget/economy model, Ambassador the middle level model, and the Viscount was the top range model. The Viscount also had sub models, depending on size, etc.

For the first few years up until 1965 the Valiant had a distinctively different look to the Ambassadors and Viscounts, but from that year all three models looked basically the same with differences in fittings and fixtures. For example Viscounts had wrap around windows, but those windows were also an optional extra on Ambassasors. So the fact that your van looks similar to a Valiant doesn’t mean that it’s a Valiant.

You’ll note that Dave and Tammy’s van has plain, unridged cladding at window height on the side.  That was a characteristic feature of Valiants up until 1965.  Yours doesn’t have that, but then your van is not as old as Dave and Tammy’s (see below), so it doesn’t help us to know whether it is either a later Valiant or an Ambassador.

Normally the easiest way to distinguish between Valiants and Ambassadors is to look at the serial number on the drawbar. So Valiants had a serial number beginning with ‘B’ or ‘C’ (and some started with ‘A’ but that’s another story), and Ambassador serial numbers began with ‘D’ and ‘E’. However that doesn’t help you because you don’t have the original serial number. Hopefully Twocutekelpies may be able to tell you other ways of determining whether or not your van is an Ambassador.

The TR number you’ve quoted, while it isn’t a VIN, isn’t a Viscount chassis number either and has been added at a later point. It would have been a number issued to the then owner by the state registration body.

During the 1960’s Viscount changed the shape of the coloured flashes on their vans each year (or almost every year) which helps to date their vans. If you look you’ll see the flash on Dave and Tammy’s van is actually different in shape to the flash on yours. That means that your van isn’t as old as theirs. The flash on their van indicates that it was built in 1965, while I think the flash on yours indicates a build date of 1967. Twocutekelpies will be able to confirm that (or otherwise).

Hope that helps.

Don Ricardo

[twocutekelpies]

As far as I'm aware, the flashing was hand painted so some differences could be due to whichever artist painted that day. It is quite similar to C967 though, agreeing with 1967.

Don gives me way too much credit, although I've collated a lot of information from the chassis numbers, there is still a lot open to interpretation. The shape looks Valiant to me but they are one of the harder to work out years for due to the different types of cladding used in no real order, it seems whatever was available at the time of build. Even the differences in windows, Dave and Tammy's has a fixed back window as well as a fixed kitchen window (non-opening).

An interior observation -
Looking at Dave and Tammy's van here, the cabinet handles seem the same as yours (if yours is the black and white interior in your flickr account). I rarely see interiors so I'm not sure what period those handles cover.  

Any more photos please Steve? Tail lights, back window, interior, all help.

[retrotimes]

Hi Don

Thanks for your reply!

I did notice the variance in the flashes. I was perplexed that I couldn't find a van with identical flashes, and the current owner is a painter and showed me that the shape of them hasn't been altered. This evening I've trawled more of the threads on this forum and found a Valiant with the same flashes, the one that tassiedave found in the bush!

www.flickr.com/photos/188621482@N07/49944138333/in/dateposted-public/

I hope that Twocutekelpies will see this thread soon and verify what I've found.

Looking at all the Valiants I've found in the threads (such as cssherry's and bohodreamer's vans) it appears that my registration details could be correct in stating that it is a Jan 1966

Yes I thought that the TR number must have been allocated at a later date. I am hoping when I get her home that there may be a number hidden under a draw or table, or in the cupboard, that the current owner hasn't found. I don't want to put the incorrect decals on it.

Cheers
Steve (Retrotimes)

[Don Ricardo]

Hi Twocutekelpies,

Good to have your thoughts on Retrotimes van.

Just by the way, I note that Dave&Tammy’s Valiant has the serial number of B2290, which equates to a 1965 build. However, it’s not on your serial number list that I can see (or perhaps just not on my copy). You can find the thread for their van here. You may want to add It to your register if it’s not already there.

Don Ricardo

[Don Ricardo]

Hi Retrotimes,

You’ve been doing some good research. Well done.

You’ll see that Twocutekelpies has replied to your post and did refer to Tassiedave’e find also (serial number C297).

In the case of Ambassadors, the ‘D’ serial numbers have a wooden frame, whereas those with an ‘E’ serial number have an aluminium frame (I think I’ve got that the right way around). I’m not sure whether there’s the same difference between the ‘B’ and ‘C’ series Valiants?  But it will be interesting to see what sort of frame your van has, and I’ll be keen to hear what else you are able to discover when you get your van home.

Don Ricardo

[retrotimes]

Thanks for jumping into the thread Twocutekelpies, I was hoping to hear your thoughts!

Yes, that Black & White interior on my flickr account is our van. I've just added another interior shot. These were the only ones I saved when it was listed on Gumtree, I'll add more when we get her home next week.

You can see that the restoration by the current owner has involved replacing the ceiling and wall lining but he was careful to leave the original cabinetry, beds and table. He obviously modified the kitchen to accommodate the new fridge and microwave but reinstated the original handles. I have compared the cupboard handles too with Valiant interiors and they seem to fit with the 1966 timing. The earlier ones appear to be a rounded chrome style.

In answer to Don Ricardo's query, it is an aluminium frame. The owner showed me pictures of when he had it rewired.

Thanks again. I look forward to hearing anything else, with the aim of confirming the correct decals I should put on it!

Cheers
Steve

[twocutekelpies]

May 28, 2020 20:32:51 GMT 10 Don Ricardo said:

Hi Twocutekelpies,

Good to have your thoughts on Retrotimes van.

Just by the way, I note that Dave&Tammy’s Valiant has the serial number of B2290, which equates to a 1965 build. However, it’s not on your serial number list that I can see (or perhaps just not on my copy). You can find the thread for their van here. You may want to add It to your register if it’s not already there.

Don Ricardo

I emailed you the latest register early this morning before work, B2990 is on line 166, still listed as 1965 but the more I look at the numbers and details above it, the more it's looking like it should be 1967. I think the 1965 bands had more rounded tips (refer B2012), followed by more pointed "arrows" in 1966 (refer B2389), then back to the flat top bands but with more pointed tips in 1967. Mind you, it's been an extremely long day today and my brain is a little addled so I could be way off, but if I'm right, it upsets the years in the Valiant history thread.   

There are a few other Valiants who have dates either written under the table or original purchase receipts that put C967 (Tassie Dave) in 1967.

I'm still inclined to think 1967, earlier would have a squared wheel arch, not the rounded one. (refer to B2012 and B2389 above to see their wheel arches are squared)

[Don Ricardo]

Hi Retrotimes and Twocutekelpies,

Pardon us, Retrotimes, while Twocutekelpies and I ruminate on the build dates of various vans. All the same, pondering some of these questions may get us a bit closer to the build date of your van...eventually.

Speaking more directly about Retrotimes van though, the fact that his van has a straight rear wall and not a “notched” rear wall seems to confirm that it is a Valiant and not an Ambassador. Is that what we’re saying? We know that build dates according to registration authorities are notoriously often wrong. And we know that on a smaller number of occasions sometimes a van can be misidentified on the registration papers. This seems to be a case of that...

Just getting my thinking straight!

Don Ricardo

[twocutekelpies]

Based on the shape of the rear, I'm confirming Valiant and based on paintwork, I'm estimating 1967.



I've just spent the morning collating the 1960s Valiant chassis numbers I have on the register and putting them in order of series.
I've made an album of screen shots here showing numbers, paintwork, slanted/non slanted windows, wheel arch shape etc. (hope the link works) I didn't realise just how many Valiants we've come across for this register!   

Don Ricardo, I've changed the years on a few from what I sent you yesterday, I can resend if you like.   

Shelley

[retrotimes]

That is certainly a large register of Valiants Twocutekelpies! It appears that we can safely say that the registration details are correct for our van at at 1966, or a year out and a 1967 as you say. Are the flashes the main thing that make you think it is 1967 and not 1966?

It certainly doesn't appear to be earlier as I can see that features of the 1965 Valiants are different, in particular the square wheel wheel arch? It appears also that the internal fittings such as the table support leg and cupboard handles were different prior to 1966. Do you agree that Dave and Tammy's and Tassie Dave's are the closest to ours and should be the guide for the Valiant decals I put on our van? It seems there are two ready made Valiant decals so I'm trying to determine which one is more correct for '66/'67.

Here are some more pics of ours now she is home.

Our van - rear by Steven Cox, on Flickr

Our Van - front by Steven Cox, on Flickr

Our van - seating by Steven Cox, on Flickr

[retrotimes]

These are the two ready made decals I found online. The supplier can't tell me what year vans they belong on. I feel looking at the styling that the one on the left would be later and more appropriate for my '66/'67 Valiant, however if anyone can suggest a better match, or a different supplier that would be great!I'm keen to get some on, she looks a bit naked! Thanks

Viscount Valiant Decals ERV Stickers by Steven Cox, on Flickr

[retrotimes]

Looking back through all of the images I have saved, I believe this van that was referred to as being 150 odd vans after Tassie Dave's would be closest to ours. The wheel arch, flashes and cupboard handles (that you can just see!) are an exact match. This would support my choice of the left deal above.

Valiant 150 vans after Tassiedave's by Steven Cox, on Flickr

[Don Ricardo]

Hi Retrotimes,

Great to see the pics of your van.

My feeling is that your van is a little younger than C1111 because, although they seem to have the same shape flashes, C1111 has plain unridged cladding between the side windows. In contrast yours has the ridged cladding there, which was a later style. However, Viscount may not have been consistent with the cladding they used.

I’d be interested to hear what Twocutekelpies thinks about that.

Don Ricardo

[starburst]

Hi retrotimes, have you checked under the table, inside the cupboards, under drawers, etc, for a pencilled production line date?

[retrotimes]

Yes I sure have thanks starburst...sadly I can't find anything.
Thanks again Don Ricardo, I will be waiting to hear Twocutekelpies thoughts.

[twocutekelpies]

Regarding the decals, I haven't worked out what was used when but the one with the lion appeared on B2231 and the other on B2206, very closely numbered and both 1966 from appearance. 

Not sure on the cladding, as I've said before, they seemed to use whatever was available when building the Valiants, there are a few before C1111 with the ribbed middle band and some around with the same smooth band.

Looking across the register at the Viscounts and Ambassadors, the wheel arch shape appears to be consistent - squared until 1966, rounded very late 1967 onwards. I can't really see them changing the shape of the wheel arches for their budget models so am sticking with 1967.   

[retrotimes]

Thanks Twocutekelpies, I'll settle for 1967 as that was the year I was born! All the information is good to know, and will help in my discussion with people when we start getting out and about. Who knows I might see an exact same van on our travels and have the year confirmed one day.

In the meantime I'll put on the VVAL decal that is readily available and see if someone corrects me one day!

[bohodreamer]

Jun 5, 2020 21:50:44 GMT 10 retrotimes said:

These are the two ready made decals I found online. The supplier can't tell me what year vans they belong on. I feel looking at the styling that the one on the left would be later and more appropriate for my '66/'67 Valiant, however if anyone can suggest a better match, or a different supplier that would be great!I'm keen to get some on, she looks a bit naked! Thanks

Viscount Valiant Decals ERV Stickers by Steven Cox, on Flickr