In praise of the bodge. Near enough is often good enough.

[flyingspagmonster]

Here's the thing ..... not all of us are retired with a private fortune. Not all of us have purpose built workshops equipped with specialist tools. Not all of us want to spend two years restoring a van which they want to use before their kids get too big and grumpy to drag around on holidays. Two years is a hellishly long time in the life of a child, and is precious time to the parents. This is where Captain Bodge comes in. I like Captain Bodge, I've made him my friend over half a century of restoring things. Sometimes he doesn't even get a run on, but on other occasions he's entirely in charge. And I'm OKAY with that.

Eg, I'm not going to take the cupboard doors off my old van, remove all the hardware, strip, sand, undercoat, then recoat .. while waiting for the hardware to be re-chromed, when I can buy one good quality cutting brush and use my modest calligraphy skills to carefully paint around obstacles, directly over the weathered old paint. And I can take a little extra fine steel wool to that hardware and it'll look almost as good as re-chroming. I'm not going to take the skin off my old van and rebuild frames any time soon, either, not when the thing remains intact over regular 1000km journeys, and is still sounder at 57 years old than most modern vans. I'm not going to lift the damned thing off its bowed chassis to reinforce same and replace sagging floors - I simply don't have the facilities, equipment, or time to go thusly nuts. She holds together, and besides, we're used to seeing the wardrobe and kitchen at a slight outward cant

The point is, sometimes (in fact, more often than some would have us believe) it's okay to do a slap up job just to keep the old beast from the scrapyard. If YOU like the way it looks, and have done the best you are PREPARED to do (note I didn't say the best you CAN do ... I CAN do much better than I do, but then something else has to give .. and I'm not prepared to sacrifice time with my kids for some arbitrary notion of perfection), then that's awesome. It doesn't matter if you don't have more than an old tarp to throw over her, or buckets of money to throw at her - sometimes a lick of paint, new curtains, and a tidy up will do wonders. Sometimes that's all a van needs in order to be used and loved. Yes, some vans do need major structural repairs - but I'd go out on a limb here and say that the vast majority of older vans still on the road have some, if not extensive, water damage to frames etc. Clearly it's not such a big deal in terms of integrity for ordinary use. If it was, none of these old beasts would still be on the road. My 20cents worth to the 'inclined to cut corners' would be that a functional level of structural integrity should be reasonably obvious, so if you can't see it, and it's not causing any immediate or foreseeable future problems, it's doesn't exist. Of course common sense does need to get involved sometimes, so if you're concerned about safety or some other such (how many caravans explode en route, under normal conditions, seriously. No really, how many? ), then get your mates around to rock the thing sideways a few times and see what happens!

So, congrats to those of you who are okay with Captain Bodge. If more of us were okay with him, there might be more old vans rescued from certain doom. If those 'dictating the terms' of restoration are the best resourced, too many who might otherwise give it a go, never will. There's nothing more damaging to a field of restoration interest than restoration snobbery. It's ALWAYS better to keep the Precious Old Thing in circulation, even in a half-baked way, than for it to be trashed. We loose far more important historical artifacts to the pervasive fear of 'not doing it properly', than we do to bodgy jobs.

Here endeth the lesson  

[Roehm3108]

Hope this thread was meant to be a joke!! Pretty poor advice for a newby to be giving on a forum on which people take pride in what they do. To say nothing about thoughtless for the safety of your own family or other road users when something happens because it was OK according to YOUR "wisdom". So you'd wrap your child's broken arm in a bandage and say "Near enough is good enough"?

Sometimes there is no justification for instant gratification!!!

As for "purpose built workshops and specialist tools" ..... how little you know the people on this forum!

[strugglebrook]

Mr Flingspagmonster, you are living proof that God has a sense of humor and or Mother Nature can be cruel.
Having owned many older cars, motorcycles and caravans (still do),to say to someone as long as it`s got wheels keep dragging the old van up and down the highway regardless of condition is unacceptable.
Unfortunately nowadays common sense is no longer common. With sites such as this people are able to share information and people with certain skills can offer advice on their trade background or on lessons learned through years of tinkering. The only sure way of making sure an older whatever is fully sound is to strip it down and rebuild which is fine if that`s what blows wind up your skirt. The next way is to buy something that appears sound using advice from someone with knowledge on the subject if you don`t feel confident or competent. The same as having a house inspected or a used car.
The degree to which we restore,paint and polish is a personal thing but if something is going to share the road with other users it has to be at least fit for purpose.
I think you may well have been asleep when the lessons were being taught.

[flyingspagmonster]

Oct 20, 2015 20:22:17 GMT 10 Roehm3108 said:

Hope this thread was meant to be a joke!! Pretty poor advice for a newby to be giving on a forum on which people take pride in what they do. To say nothing about thoughtless for the safety of your own family or other road users when something happens because it was OK according to YOUR "wisdom". So you'd wrap your child's broken arm in a bandage and say "Near enough is good enough"?

Sometimes there is no justification for instant gratification!!!

As for "purpose built workshops and specialist tools" ..... how little you know the people on this forum!

I think I understand the indignation. But I don't understand why you would compound my very point by suggesting that pride can only be derived from actions taken according to your personal standard. I know you mean well, but you do far more harm than good to suggest only those who do things your way take pride in their efforts. I'm sure you're old enough to know that that's nonsense.

And it's not about instant gratification, it's about doing what you're prepared to do and not being ashamed of the end result. It's not a Higher School Certificate, it's a leisure pursuit.

I do know that many old van restorers have collected an array of specialist tools, and most seem to have sheds or garages. I wouldn't like to see someone new put off by their lack of same. It's important to note that - loudly and often. I want to see more old vans appreciated, not less.

And finally, I'm not discussing roadworthiness, I'm discussing methods and time spent on restoration.

[flyingspagmonster]

Oct 21, 2015 7:38:59 GMT 10 strugglebrook said:

Mr Flingspagmonster, you are living proof that God has a sense of humor and or Mother Nature can be cruel.
Having owned many older cars, motorcycles and caravans (still do),to say to someone as long as it`s got wheels keep dragging the old van up and down the highway regardless of condition is unacceptable.
Unfortunately nowadays common sense is no longer common. With sites such as this people are able to share information and people with certain skills can offer advice on their trade background or on lessons learned through years of tinkering. The only sure way of making sure an older whatever is fully sound is to strip it down and rebuild which is fine if that`s what blows wind up your skirt. The next way is to buy something that appears sound using advice from someone with knowledge on the subject if you don`t feel confident or competent. The same as having a house inspected or a used car.
The degree to which we restore,paint and polish is a personal thing but if something is going to share the road with other users it has to be at least fit for purpose.
I think you may well have been asleep when the lessons were being taught.

Thanks for your comment. As you'll see above, this isn't about roadworthiness (that's your local registration body's concern, not mine), it's about 'standards' of restoration. I don't believe that those with the highest possible standards are doing the interest a service by critiquing those who's standards are simply different. I believe they're harmful to the long term goals of van saving, in fact.

I noticed a recent comment from someone regarding a van with a mildly bowed chassis, to the effect "who in their right mind would buy such a thing". I'm sorry to say, but that sort of pompous nonsense just puts people off. Because LOTS OF PEOPLE WOULD BUY THAT THING. Someone obviously did. I also see pretty average water damage on vans new people are considering and it's all code red from the elders. No, it's not ideal, but there are only so many perfectly preserved bondwoods living in farm sheds. SOMEONE has to buy these 60's and 70's clunkers and give it a go, else they'll be lost.

And if many of these purchases end up as gutted unfinished projects, it's probably because those buying them felt a full rebuild was somehow the right thing to do. The pressure to rebuild, when a simple restoration might have sufficed, is evidently pretty strong in these cases. If more were encouraged to start small, and only go big if absolutely necessary, we'd see more vans saved. On repeat.

Those who start on a 70's water damaged Viscount will either stop there and continue to enjoy it as a working van, or might go on to do full rebuilds on a barn found bondwood. The point is that's one more van saved, at the very least. Those same people could also come here, see all the code red and very particular standards, and think it's just too hard. So instead of saving those old vans, they buy a white plastic brick on wheels. Or a goldfish.

All the best to you. Appreciate your input.

[Roehm3108]

I’m sure there are people on this site who practice what you preach. The only difference is that they don’t advertise that failing. You may be happy with mediocrity when it comes to working on your own van, perhaps even flogging it off on ebay as a “full restoration”, but most people on this site take pride in what they do. Why? Because they understand what the word “restoration” means – “the action of returning something to a former owner, place, or condition: the process of restoring a building, work of art, etc. to its original condition”(Oxford dictionaries)

I was taught that when doing any sort of work, the only thing you should do twice is measure. Everything else should be done ONCE and done properly! That’s not MY PERSONAL standard, that’s standard practice for all things in life.

Our Forum Guidelines state “The primary focus of this forum is AUSTRALIAN VINTAGE CARAVANS, defined on the www.vintagecaravans.com website as pre-1970 manufactured or homemade caravans and teardrop caravans. We are passionate about preserving and restoring old caravans, campers and camping trailers.” Note the words “passionate”, “preserving” and “restoring”. If you don’t agree with that, then perhaps you need to start your own forum, elsewhere.

[flyingspagmonster]

Oct 21, 2015 9:47:14 GMT 10 Roehm3108 said:

I’m sure there are people on this site who practice what you preach. The only difference is that they don’t advertise that failing. You may be happy with mediocrity when it comes to working on your own van, perhaps even flogging it off on ebay as a “full restoration”, but most people on this site take pride in what they do. Why? Because they understand what the word “restoration” means – “the action of returning something to a former owner, place, or condition: the process of restoring a building, work of art, etc. to its original condition”(Oxford dictionaries)

I was taught that when doing any sort of work, the only thing you should do twice is measure. Everything else should be done ONCE and done properly! That’s not MY PERSONAL standard, that’s standard practice for all things in life.

Our Forum Guidelines state “The primary focus of this forum is AUSTRALIAN VINTAGE CARAVANS, defined on the www.vintagecaravans.com website as pre-1970 manufactured or homemade caravans and teardrop caravans. We are passionate about preserving and restoring old caravans, campers and camping trailers.” Note the words “passionate”, “preserving” and “restoring”. If you don’t agree with that, then perhaps you need to start your own forum, elsewhere.

Once again, you've added weight to my point. "Done properly" means something entirely different to different people. Who's measure is the right one? Who's measure of 'mediocrity' is correct, for that matter?

And once again, you suggest that pride is necessarily a product of a particular standard (yours, or some arbitrarily stated universal measure). It really isn't. A person can have as much pride in the result of a slap up job (if the end result pleases them) as they do in a laborious rebuild. Pride is a human emotion, not a sum of parts.

The same is true of passion. Why must those who painstakingly take something apart have more passion than someone who searches the world for just the right barkcloth curtain fabric? You're attributing a standard where none exists. As for preserving and restoring .... an old van headed for the scrapheap is automatically deserving of the title 'preserved' if it's taken home by some enthusiastic kid for a lick and polish. If it doesn't reach the scrapheap, it's preserved. Beyond that it's all personal, and none of us has the right or the grounds to determine a different approach as a 'failing'.

Meantime, I stand by everything I've said here. Proudly and Passionately. I'm interested in seeing old vans kept out of the scrapheap - that's my motivation. If we insist on standards impossible for most of us to meet (by calling anything 'less' a failing, and by suggesting pride is somehow tied only to these same standards), we loose three quarters of the people who might give it a go. That's a terrible shame, and a terrible waste of a lot of half-way decent vans.

[flyingspagmonster]

Further to points made (by moi) ....
I've been involved in antiques restoration for many decades, and it occurred to me that there's a comparable turning of the tides in this field. 30 years ago, Joe Blogs would never have considered taking on the restoration (preservation, call it what you will) of, say, a piece of Victorian furniture. Why? Because the French Polishers sniffed at the idea of 'amateurs' getting involved, and made sure the knowledge was closely guarded. Said amateurs were so intimidated by impossible to meet standards, that they never bothered. The few who could afford it, bought from antique stores at insane prices, and the rest of us mere mortals made do with Ikea. NOW, however, the tight grip on the industry has been prised open and all that great but dilapidated stuff which previously went to landfill is now being preserved by Joe Blogs. No, they're not French polishing, but they are keeping pieces alive for future generations. The rise in interest in antiques and vintage (which has been exponential in the past 15 years) is testament to this relinquishing of the old 'standards'. And it has been very much in the best interests of preservation of history. The more of us who get involved, the more stuff gets saved.

[adamcharch]

At the end of the day if you are not passionate you cannot do a good job.

[flyingspagmonster]

Oct 21, 2015 9:47:14 GMT 10 Roehm3108 said:

perhaps even flogging it off on ebay as a “full restoration”

I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean in terms of myself, as I have just my own van - which isn't for sale ... but I did want to address this point anyway.

There are many versions of 'full restoration' on ebay (and gumtree), to be sure. I like about 1% of these personally, and many are theatrically overpriced, but the way I see it is the same way I see the huge increase in ebay listings for antique and vintage furniture. The more people take an interest, no matter what shape that interest takes, the better. If people are trying to turn a dollar via a van makeover, it serves the interest in the long run. The seller is making a living, and the buyer is beginning a journey which might see many vans saved over their lifetime. Look, part of me would love to see only the highest quality, carefully restored antiques sold on ebay, but if that actually happened then we'd promptly return to the dark ages (when the antiques trade ruled the world, and good pieces were trashed in favour of Ikea).

I have to say, I find this contempt for the ebay platform inexplicable, when it comes to old vans. There are many people out there who'd love to buy an old van, but don't have the time or resources to scour barns in the countryside. If they're made to feel inadequate for considering an ebay van, they're more likely to give up altogether. For some, it's the best possible way of finding a van in their own area, and in a situation with some recourse for defaults and dodgy practices (unlike the fee-free platform starting with G). The world changes constantly, and the dissemination of once sacred knowledge is a permanent reality in the internet age.

People are going to do things the 'wrong' way everywhere, all the time. Which proves handsomely that there is no 'wrong', there's only different - when we're talking anything but criminal or abusive behaviour. Keeping our own standards is all well and good, but they don't apply to anyone else. Obviously. I have nothing against those who want to send the smallest parts of their carefully deconstructed van off to the Welsh Fairies to bless before having them gilded, because that's THEIR thing, not mine.

There's something vaguely religious (and my apologies to the religious amongst you) about the idea that if you hold a particular viewpoint (or standard), you're entitled to belittle the viewpoints (or standards) of others. I hate to see that sort of bigotry here, or anywhere that Old Things are the reason for being. So, I'm choosing to believe that no bigotry is intended, and that good, honest-but fiery enthusiasm drives the thing.

[flyingspagmonster]

Oct 21, 2015 11:59:37 GMT 10 adamcharch said:

At the end of the day if you are not passionate you cannot do a good job.

Agreed. But the causes and end products of passion is different for everyone. A 'good' job is different for everyone. Some will say that spending months on hinges, then putting up stiff modern rubber backed curtains is shoddy, and that a truly passionate person wouldn't do such a thing. I could say that, because part of me actually believes it, but I don't say it because the hinge lovers are as important as the curtain Nazis.

[shesgotthelook]

You are missing the point FSM. If you are happy to fix to to useable standard, that is fine. Why the need to insult those who do a master craftsman job? That again, is their choice. The old adage, 'There are two ways of doing things, the wrong way & my way' springs to mind. Most folks on here go out of their way to help & advise people wanting to get into vintage vanning & it is a very wise warning if we can see a for sale van being much worse than it appears.

I'd be happy if I could just bodge up this little van. What do you think?

[flyingspagmonster]

Oct 21, 2015 13:26:36 GMT 10 shesgotthelook said:

You are missing the point FSM. If you are happy to fix to to useable standard, that is fine. Why the need to insult those who do a master craftsman job? That again, is their choice. The old adage, 'There are two ways of doing things, the wrong way & my way' springs to mind. Most folks on here go out of their way to help & advise people wanting to get into vintage vanning & it is a very wise warning if we can see a for sale van being much worse than it appears.

I'd be happy if I could just bodge up this little van. What do you think?

Perhaps I am missing the point. What was it? That it's okay to take things as close to perfection as an endless time and money budget allows? No one said it wasn't okay - and I certainly didn't. More power to you, if that's your thing. MY point, was that both ends of the spectrum are as okay as each other. Neither is 'better' than the other, and if the weight (of opinion hereabouts) falls on the side of perfection, then we lose an unknown number of those who otherwise might try, to fear of 'failure'. After all, it's been suggested above that doing anything less is a failure. It's also been suggested that pride of workmanship is the key to this lofty standard, and only those with pride in same can create something to be proud of. These off the cuff remarks are not only a patent nonsense, but do untold harm to the interest.

As for the van pictured, what do you want to know? My opinion on it? Maybe the person who buys it will fix the major structural problems and then just repaint it. I'd be as happy to see that happen as to see it stripped back to almost nothing and rebuilt with new materials. And I've no doubt at all that the person who 'bodged' it could be as proud of their efforts as the rebuilders. AND it would be one more van saved. Leaving it in a paddock because there's no one available with the time and resources to rebuild it is not going to help the van.

As for the helpful fellows hereabouts, well yes, there are quite a few. I've been a long time lurker, so I do read a lot of posts here. Unfortunately, there are also a few who engage imply there's a limited number of ways to skin a cat. It just doesn't HELP, you know. We want young kids and women joining in, not saying "it's too hard". These young blokes (and women) need to know it's okay to walk before you can run, instead of feeling the pressure to run first. And by walk I mean do a modest job on an old clunker and see how it feels. I don't mean "buy a near perfect van so you don't have to do much". This isn't rocket surgery, after all, it's hobbyism.

Having said that, I'm all for excelling in more important spheres of human endeavour - education, health & fitness, kindness, social justice, etc, but seriously, this isn't serious. Not in the same sense anyway. Serious only in that we want to save as many vans as possible, but not serious in that there are no measures which need to be observed. It's just fun stuff, and we get to save vans along with it

[Roehm3108]

OP I'm seriously convinced you need to start your own forum!

[cobber]

G'day flyingspagmonster,

As a long time non-contributing lurker on the forum you have apparently noticed somebody being chastised for doing a bodge job on their caravan, this has apparently led you to post your rather verbose defence of those who do a less than full on restoration, myself included, and I thank you for coming to our rescue 

As a matter of interest, could you give me a link to a post where somebody was unfairly criticised over the work they were doing on their van, I hope you can find more than one example, and could you post a photo of your bodge caravan, we love photos here on the forum and, we need a good laugh.

Cobber

[flyingspagmonster]

Oct 21, 2015 15:55:35 GMT 10 cobber said:

G'day flyingspagmonster,

As a long time non-contributing lurker on the forum you have apparently noticed somebody being chastised for doing a bodge job on their caravan, this has apparently led you to post your rather verbose defence of those who do a less than full on restoration, myself included, and I thank you for coming to our rescue 

As a matter of interest, could you give me a link to a post where somebody was unfairly criticised over the work they were doing on their van, I hope you can find more than one example, and could you post a photo of your bodge caravan, we love photos here on the forum and, we need a good laugh.

Cobber

Verra funny, young Cobber I see what you did there!

Seriously though ... I haven't seen anyone directly chastised, but I've seen plenty of sniffy disapproval of the 'inferior' work of others.

[flyingspagmonster]

Oct 21, 2015 15:29:14 GMT 10 Roehm3108 said:

OP I'm seriously convinced you need to start your own forum!

Undoubtedly, but that's no reason to shout in pink

[DC3Td]

Gotta say FSM - As a vehicle detailer of thirty years experience & in the motor industry 50 years,i`ve done 50,000+ details.If i took your attitude to my work i would long ago have been sacked.Or run out of town.Ideally the Forum owner should run you off this forum.Trolls like you take up too much space.Anywhere.

[JBJ]

Hi

I pretty well totally disagree with your thoughts, but at least you have woken everyone up from their hibernation

To each his own, & you probably know opposite thinkers cannot agree with one another, & both sides are inflexible.

Sorta like the old argument hot rodders against restorers ( Not that I want to start that one again)


So after all what you have done is probably pointless.

HO HUM


JBJ

[flyingspagmonster]

Oct 21, 2015 16:16:05 GMT 10 DC3Td said:

Gotta say FSM - As a vehicle detailer of thirty years experience & in the motor industry 50 years,i`ve done 50,000+ details.If i took your attitude to my work i would long ago have been sacked.Or run out of town.Ideally the Forum owner should run you off this forum.Trolls like you take up too much space.Anywhere.

I think perhaps you don't realise that you're inadvertently supporting my position. Such rudeness and hostility is exactly the issue I'm addressing. Meantime, I'm sorry you feel the need to be unpleasant. That's a bloody shame.

[flyingspagmonster]

Oct 21, 2015 17:10:25 GMT 10 JBJ said:

Hi

I pretty well totally disagree with your thoughts, but at least you have woken everyone up from their hibernation

To each his own, & you probably know opposite thinkers cannot agree with one another, & both sides are inflexible.

Sorta like the old argument hot rodders against restorers ( Not that I want to start that one again)


So after all what you have done is probably pointless.

HO HUM


JBJ

There are no 'sides', it's about saving the Dons of tomorrow, however that's done. That's my sole interest.

And I don't think it's pointless - if even one van is taken home by an inexperienced and underesourced because they read this - it's been worthwhile. If one struggling young mum or dad has a go at 'bodging' up a $500 van for family holidays, because he didn't cave under the pressure of impossible standards, it's been worthwhile.

[gregh]

FSM. You started something; a topic that has no place in this forum; NO! its not the topic, its your approach to the topic. Roehm3108 made it very clear what this forum is about, in his 2nd reply, yet you continue to antagonise members. If you are "so enlightened", you would have ceased way back, yet you continue. You are a troll looking to stir SH@# - go and play somewhere else.

[kingswood308]

How many caravans have you restored FSM ? Or for that matter, how many have you owned ??

Love to see photo's of the ones you have restored, not a cheque book restoration.

We all do the best we can do with our vans as skills and finances will allow.



I personally have never seen any member scoff at some one else's work on any van .

I have only seen helpful hints and whole hearted and genuine advice given to members.

[Roehm3108]

Oct 21, 2015 16:08:43 GMT 10 flyingspagmonster said:

Oct 21, 2015 15:29:14 GMT 10 Roehm3108 said:

OP I'm seriously convinced you need to start your own forum!

Undoubtedly, but that's no reason to shout in pink

The unwritten rule for shouting is using all capital letters.  I used lower case, just made them larger so that you would notice.  Pink? It was either that or red.  But red would say I'm upset, which I'm not ...  well, maybe a little bit, which is why I chose that colour.  After all, it is a hue/tone of red

[JBJ]

Hi,

I guess one good thing will come out of this.
Like all stirrers that come on this forum, you will upset a lot of people quickly, then suffer burnout or whatever, & disappear into the distance.
You really have nothing to add to this forum, except your opinion. From the reaction so far you must realise that your opinion is different than most.

I would not expect anything useful to come out of your efforts to persuade us that you have a realistic & valid attitude to what this forum represents.

But you have the right to state your thoughts.

Its just I think you are wrong.

HO HUM

JBJ