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Post by Don Ricardo on May 23, 2008 0:03:34 GMT 10
Hi all, At the recent Gold Coast Heritage Expo, Boblor had a chat to a couple of people who had a mate called Bruce, who… Well you all know how the conversation develops at these events. Anyway, the upshot was that Boblor put Bruce in touch with me. Bruce is interested in finding out a bit more about his grandfather’s caravans and has emailed me some pics. This is a photo of his grandfather’s first caravan. I presume it is Bruce’s grandmother standing in the doorway:  Based on the design, the barn door on the left hand side of the van, and the wheels, I’m thinking that this caravan was probably English, and probably late 20’s or early 30’s. What do others think? Maybe Cobber can tell us something using his research on English caravans? Also can anybody identify the car and it’s approximate date? If anybody knows, that will help to set the earliest date the photograph can have been taken. Bruce’s grandfather was E L Gates, who as it happens played a small part in Australian caravan history. Bruce also emailed me the following extract from a book called ‘Taking Its Place’: “Fully equipped caravans were largely imported for the traveller from America until Oakleigh men Dick Robinson and his son Don commenced production in a galvanised-iron garage in Dandenong Road on the Neerim Road corner. Don was building a van as a one-off for his father to take on fishing trips. A dairyman saw the prototype in construction and his brother E.L. Gates purchased it before completion. More orders were placed before the first oval-shaped caravan left the shed.” (p 191) Incredible to think that we now know something about Mr Gates! Don Ricardo |
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Post by mpower on May 23, 2008 8:43:59 GMT 10
Hi Don,
My Rover is post WW11. My understanding is that passenger vehicles were not produced during the war. The rear of the vehicle in the photograph is similar to mine but probably not a Rover. The style suggests to me the vehicle is mid to late 1930's.
Sorry I can't be more specific.
Mark and Maureen
Bendigo
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Post by boblor on May 23, 2008 18:08:46 GMT 10
Hi Don and V V ers
Gates is referred in article by Lionel Mussel in CW Nov. 1993 pages 20,21,and 22, worth a read as it is about Don caravans.
Cheers Boblor
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Post by cobber on May 23, 2008 20:48:54 GMT 10
G'day Don, That 'van is a blast from the past and further evidence that English 'vans played a part in “Australia's Touring Heritage”. At this point I can only agree with your assumption that it is English design built in the early thirties... if I were to have a stab in the dark I would guess it could be a “Winchester” or “Car Cruiser” but who needs a stab in the dark, not me, so I have forwarded the photo to a friend in the UK who knows about these things, so I will wait and see what he thinks. I am assuming you are not trying to trick us..... eh    Don't have a clue regarding the car. Cobber. |
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Post by cobber on May 24, 2008 16:02:51 GMT 10
My friend confirms one of my guesses.... it is an early 1930's “Winchester Lightweight”, one of the many designs Bertram Hutchings had on the market during that decade. The 1930's was a period when innovation and experimentation was rife in the UK as they moved away from the square box like shape of the past decade toward the wonderful streamline shape shown above . The question is, as always, who brought it to Oz, when, why, and why didn't they look after it so we could play restoration with it now. Cobber. |
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Post by firefighter on May 24, 2008 20:59:52 GMT 10
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Post by Don Ricardo on May 24, 2008 22:02:01 GMT 10
Cobber - Fantastic information you received from your friend in England identifying Bruce's grandfather's first van as a 1930's Winchester. Thank you for contacting him or her. I'm sure Bruce will be really pleased to have that information. I'm hoping that he may be watching this thread on-line, but if not I'll email him and let him know.
Firefighter - Quite a reasonable question to ask, so, no, I don't think you're away with the fairies. However, Bruce did mention to me in one of his emails that his grandfather came from England in 1912 with his wife and two children, so I'm assuming from that that the pic was taken in Australia - and from what Cobber has suggested - in the 30's.
Everyone - Can anyone else help identify the car in the pic? The consensus seems to be English, maybe Rover, Riley or Jag (presumably an SS if pre-WW2?)... Any other suggestions from some of you 30's & 40's car buffs such as Kaybee or Will? I'm sure Bruce will be really pleased to have any info we can provide...
Don Ricardo
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Post by firefighter on May 24, 2008 23:22:28 GMT 10
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Post by Don Ricardo on May 26, 2008 22:39:22 GMT 10
Hi all, This is another photo Bruce has sent me and shows his grandfather, E L Gates', third caravan.  In this case we know what the caravan is...I hear a few groans - sorry folks the photos of old Dons just keep popping up from everywhere don't they? ;D ;D ;D The caravan is a Don 140 (14' 6" model). Judging by the pattern of the leadlight on the side windows it looks post-war, but I think from what I can see the wheels are of a slotted variety which I'm pretty sure were used after the war but by the late 40's had been replaced by a non-slotted variety. I'm guessing 1947 or thereabouts...? Other ideas? What Bruce would like to know about this photo is the make and year of the car, which will help to date the photo. Hopefully we will have better luck identifying this car than the vehicle in the first photo. For starters we can see the whole vehicle! Can anybody help Bruce with this one? Don Ricardo |
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Post by firefighter on May 26, 2008 22:45:27 GMT 10
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Post by Don Ricardo on May 26, 2008 23:10:33 GMT 10
Hi Firefighter,
Quicker than lightening you are!
I wondered if it was a Chev, but I am pretty hazy on anything before about 1950 - apart from the obvious: Rolls Royce, Bentley, Wolseley, Riley...
1941 - so this car would have been produced before the USA entered the war, but is it likely to have been brought to Australia then (given that Australia was already at war), or would the car have come to Australia after WW2? Don't ask much do I? ;D ;D ;D
Don Ricardo
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2008 0:04:31 GMT 10
great pics Richard .........don't be concerned with those Don bashers ......they're bullies ;D ;D ;D Us "Don" tragics will be united in our cause ;D ;D Seriously, the first pic is just amazing  ........keep them coming Mark |
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Post by firefighter on May 27, 2008 0:22:46 GMT 10
don usa did not go to war till the end of 1941........7th dec 1941 because of the war the usa goverment ended production of all civilian autos on 9th feb 1942 I think we got our chassis out of canada before & after the war bodys were made in australia in 1941 G M holden in adelaide put out 10.424 vehicles in 1942...out put 460 vehicles...... big drop in numbers plus 9307 cabs for the blitz chassis from 1949 chev were imported the reason.......1948 the new holdens started coming off the line don hopes this answers your question  f/f ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Post by cobber on May 27, 2008 8:58:11 GMT 10
OK Don (you might have to change your name.... to many Dons  ) What was E.L. Gates second 'van ? It looks like he found a top spot bird watching caravan park to park at there...... these days somebody would turn up and tell him to “move along... can't camp 'ere” Don't know if F/F knows much about Chevs but what he said sounds good ;D ;D Cobber. |
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Post by Don Ricardo on May 27, 2008 21:14:39 GMT 10
Firefighter,
Thanks for the additional information on the Chev. It's fantastic what we can learn from each other through this forum (or in my case what I can learn from everybody else!).
So, given that the Chev is a '41 model, the photo can have been taken no earlier than 1941. However, petrol rationing was introduced in Australia on 1 October 1940 and tightened in 1941 to the point where petrol was quite scarce, so it is probably reasonable to think that the photo may be post-war, and that the van is also post-war, although it could be older than the car and built pre-war if Don was building 140 models at that stage.
Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Jun 7, 2008 15:09:33 GMT 10
Hi everyone, I’ve been away interstate for all of this week with only limited access to the interweb, so since I got home I have been enjoying catching up on ‘the V V news’. Being away meant that I wasn't able to follow up on Cobber’s reminder last week that I had somehow missed posting a photo of E L Gates’ second caravan. He’s right; I do seem to have skipped over it. Must have miscounted… But before I get to the second caravan, let me make a correction about E L Gates’ first caravan (shown in the post which heads this thread). Based on information provided by E L Gates’ grandson, Bruce, that his grandparents migrated to Australia in 1912, I replied to Firefighter by saying that I thought both the photo and the van were in Australia. However – as usual – Firefighter was correct! In an email last week, Bruce told me: “In answer to your questions, yes the lady in the doorway was my grandmother, EL's wife, Florence. This photo was taken in England. On the back of the photo it reads 'our home on wheels in bonnie Scotland’. I don't think that the old van was ever brought to Australia. I checked with my cousin earlier today…and he cannot remember an earlier van than the first Don.
“I am told EL and F went to England for a holiday in 1929 or early 1930's and had the use of a van whilst there and I am assuming enjoyed the lifestyle so that when they came home and heard sometime later of a van being built in Oakleigh they would not take no for an answer.
“The article from C[aravan] W[orld] that Boblor sent me says ‘Don [Robinson] did not want to sell the van as it was for his father, so put a high price on it in an attempt to frighten off the would be buyer. To his surprise Mr Gates pulled out his cheque book and for 195 pounds became the first ‘Don customer’
“I find this fact interesting because EL was a fairly frugal person but maybe he was getting some pressure from his wife, [such] as ‘I won't come fishing with you if I have to sleep on the ground’. Who knows???”This brings us to the caravan which caused E L Gates to fish his chequebook out of his pocket, which is shown below, with Florence again gracing the scene with (presumably) a little Gates:  So folks, this is E L Gates’ first Don, and if you’ve been following this thread you’ll know that the evidence points to the fact that this is also a pic of the first Don caravan – serial number 1, built in 1934. The van body shows the characteristic shape of the Don '34 - '56 series vans. The leadlight windows use the smaller glass panes used on the pre-WW2 Dons, but are placed higher up the walls than on later Don caravans, eg the Walsh’s 1936 van (serial number 30) pictured in the Caravan World article quoted by Bruce in his email. But...check out the tall stance/high ground clearance of the van (even for a Don!), and the wheels, which appear to me with my limited knowledge to have the large hubs (and spokes?) of a 1920’s motorcar. Judging by the state of the car and van, the Gates had been travelling over some pretty dusty roads when the pic was taken. This is a photo that I never imagined we’d ever see. When I opened Bruce’s email, saw the photo and realised what I was looking at, I was gobsmacked – still am really!! Not everyone has an interest in Australian caravanning history like I do – and that’s fair enough, we all have our own V V interests, and one of the best aspects of this forum is that we all respect each others' interests and views (we do don't we?) – but all the same I reckon this is a pretty exciting photograph. It's like finding one of the corner pieces in the jigsaw which makes up Australia’s caravan heritage...yes, alright, maybe I'm getting a bit carried away with my rhetoric. ;D ;D ;D As with the previous pics on this thread, if anyone can help in dating this photograph by identifying the make and year of the motor vehicle, I’m sure Bruce would be interested. Is it another Chev, Firefighter? While I’m at it, let me say thank you to Bruce for sharing his photos and a little of his family history. Don Ricardo |
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Post by cobber on Jun 7, 2008 17:45:19 GMT 10
G'day Don, We gotta worry about that fire fighter fella eh?.... anybody with that sort of sixth sense and close association with fairy's is a problem........ well done F/F . Don... anybody interested in Vintage Caravans has to think that finding a photo of the first “Don caravan” is pretty exciting, seeing as they were amongst the pioneers of the industry in Australia. As you noted it looks like 'van and car have been on some pretty dusty roads, back in the '30s you didn't have to move far out of the city to get on dusty roads and bridges over creeks were a rarity too, and the descent onto a punt at many major rivers was often pretty steep so I suppose that was why the “Don” had such a good ground clearance.... I may be wrong, but I can't see the small roller wheels at the rear of the 'van that were on later models, maybe they were fitted at the same time the overall ground clearance was lowered in order to cope with the hazards mentioned above. Comparing this photo with the previously earliest known photo of a "Don" taken in 1938....( in the “Don” Down History Lane Forum ) it would appear that the decision to lower the windows, if not the ground clearance, was made pretty early in the 'vans production. As is the case with the 48/215 Holden there will now be discussion as to whether this is the first production 'van or the first prototype or the first one sold or the first one shown to the press or the first.......... it looks like an historic photo to me. Cobber. |
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Post by Geoff & Jude on Jun 7, 2008 18:52:05 GMT 10
hi don
good story there.
i'm not sure, but the car looks like either a '36 (or '37) plymouth or dodge, except the top the grill doesn't look quite right.
(humpty is a bit of an expert on these, he might be able to get closer to it).
geoff 'n jude
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Post by firefighter on Jun 7, 2008 23:00:32 GMT 10
Hi don not a chev this time by the length of the bonnet I would say 8 cylinders very rough guess this time buick or studebaker.....1936/7 f/f ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Post by Don Ricardo on Jun 7, 2008 23:20:08 GMT 10
Hi Geoff 'n Jude and Firefighter,
Thanks for your posts. Firefighter's comment about the length of the bonnet and 8 cylinders makes sense.
Following your suggestions I did a bit of googling on Plymouth, Dodge, Chrysler, Studebaker and Buick around 1936/37, but can't seem to find a match with the Gates' vehicle. The closest seems to be a '36 DeSoto (picking up on G 'n J's Chrysler connection), but even then there are differences in the body styling, and some of the detailing of the grille.
If the car is a DeSoto I guess its body may have been built in Australia and therefore be a bit different to the US models. Is that a possibility?
I note that that one of Studebaker's mid-30's models was named the Dictator. I bet they didn't resurrect that model name after WW2!!
Don Ricardo
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Post by Don Ricardo on Jun 17, 2008 19:57:57 GMT 10
A couple of questions for Kaybee and Humpty regarding the photo of E L Gates' first Don - Reply #16 above.
Kaybee
You're pretty good at identifying the origins of wheels. Have you got any idea what might have been the source of the wheels on the van? A tall order I know, you can't see much, but I thought you might be able to give some suggestions. I'm guessing they're off a 1920's vehicle. What do you reckon?
Humpty
Cobber thought you might be able to identify the tow vehicle in the photo. It's got me stumped - I've checked out some of the cars Geoff and Firefighter suggested, but I can't find a match.
Regards,
Don Ricardo
Other people are very welcome to throw their ideas on the above questions as well!
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Post by humpty2 on Jun 17, 2008 21:04:40 GMT 10
The car is a 1937 model, T.J. Richards body.
I have eliminated DeSoto ....... grill not cut off on the top......... Chrysler by Chrysler,not enough chrome ..............
also Dodge, no ram mascot visible and the gap down the centre of the grill was about 3" wide, and doesn't look like it on this photo...........
So therefore I will call it a 1937 Plymouth.
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Post by Don Ricardo on Jun 17, 2008 21:53:12 GMT 10
Nice one Humpty. Thanks.
Looks like Geoff gets the prize - he suggested Plymouth or Dodge. (Sorry, I realise it was him that suggested that you would probably be able to identify the vehicle, not Cobber.)
I checked out '37 Plymouths on Google when Geoff suggested it, but they would have been American models, and I guess the Australian bodied cars would have looked different. Is that the way it worked? I would have thought they would have used the same grilles and a few things like that, but maybe not?
Anyway good spotting.
Don Ricardo
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