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Post by Don Ricardo on Mar 3, 2015 22:28:09 GMT 10
Hi Cobber, Franklin, Koala and others,
So what do we think 'S.I.S Standard' and 'S.I.S - 2nd class' refer to? I presume it's the grade of ply, but what's 'S.I.S'?
Don Ricardo
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Post by cobber on Mar 4, 2015 7:29:28 GMT 10
G'day Don R, An interesting question which could help dating plywood if we could find when the grading systems changed. I have found a 1953 article that refers to a couple of different systems. It would appear that S.I.S is actually S.1.S (as is clearly the case in one of the brand marks above ) S.1.S indicates 'Smooth One Side' or 'Sound One Side' There were apparently grades also marked G.1.S 'Good One Side' so it would appear it all needed sorting out and when that was done needs some research. I'll collect the information in the article and post it.... soon  Cobber. |
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Post by Koala on Mar 4, 2015 7:33:19 GMT 10
Hi Don Ricardo, I used my excellent vision and a bit of Googling to work out that it is not actually S.I.S. but S.1.S. (S.one.S.) which stands for `Smooth on One Side'. There is also another term S.2.S. which strangely means `Smooth on Two Sides'  For caravan construction S.1.S. board would be quite suitable and what you would expect to find. Now ends the lesson Koala |
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Post by akeepsake on Mar 4, 2015 14:52:08 GMT 10
S.B.S .....smooth both sides?  Interesting detective work lads! If you look at the stamp I put up from my 63 millard it has the S.1.S on it so must hVe been common well into the 60s! |
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Post by cobber on Mar 4, 2015 18:31:51 GMT 10
G'day Andrew, You just made that S.B.S. one up, didn't you  ? The post you refer to about your 63 Millard is HERE and it just shows how variable these grade marks were, 'S1S 2'. I suppose indicates smooth one side 2nd grade ?. Cobber. |
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Post by cobber on Mar 4, 2015 18:38:55 GMT 10
In response to the questions raised in the posts above this one, here are my best guesstimates. If any of our 3546 members have expertise in this area please jump in and contribute …. or forever hold your peace    . Remember we are trying to learn about the way plywood was graded in 'Vintage days'..pre 1970. I have not been able to find how marine ply was designated in vintage days. Taken from a condensed version of the grading systems as described in the September 1953 edition of 'Popular Science' magazine, I am fairly sure it is an American edition... It does mention a few different systems of what I think is the American way of grading plywood (back in those days at least) but as one of these systems have been found on Australian built caravans I think it is worth repeating here. It starts off with grades marked as 'G2S' and 'G1S' indicating 'Good two sides' and 'Good one side' I don't think we have seen that system on ply used on Australian vintage vans yet ? The next system described uses the 'S2S' and 'S1S' method, indicating 'Sound (or Smooth) two sides' or 'Smooth one side'. This system has been used on at least three members vintage caravans. This system doesn't appear to accommodate grades other than those two above, instead they move on to the two mentioned next. The two other grades described are 'WB' = wall board grade with a sound face and utility back and 'SH' = sheathing ply, has two utility faces and is un-sanded. Another system described is closer to what we are familiar with...A.B.C.& D. where a panel marked A A indicates two good faces... A B = one good face and one not so good.. A C = one good face and one utility face... lesser grades would be marked C D or even D D. Anyway, corrections and/or additions to the above are very welcome. Cobber. |
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Post by akeepsake on Mar 4, 2015 20:21:17 GMT 10
G'day Andrew, You just made that S.B.S. one up, didn't you ? The post you refer to about your 63 Millard is HERE and it just shows how variable these grade marks were, 'S1S 2'. I suppose indicates smooth one side 2nd grade ?. Cobber. You got me Cobber |
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Post by Koala on Mar 5, 2015 7:34:36 GMT 10
The lesson continues. Australian plywood manufacture commenced in Melbourne in 1911 but the two plants closed after a few years of operation. Around 1914 plywood manufacture commenced in Woolloongabba, Brisbane. Thereafter Brisbane became the main centre of plywood manufacturing activity with the 10 mills producing about two thirds of all Australian production, thus making this city the logical base for the Plywood Association of Australia. The Australian industry expanded around the country after the second World War to the stage where in 1960 there were 63 mills. Around this time the local industry was under threat from imports, and other panel products, so the industry invested heavily in CSIRO research to better understand the manufacturing process and improve productivity. In 1960 the mills used timber from indigenous forests with around 80% of the production being for interior use. Today, the nine, on average much larger mills use mainly plantation timber with around 90% of the plywood produced being for structural applications. Reference www.ewp.asn.au/library/downloads/ewpaa_plywood_manufacture.pdfKoala |
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Post by Koala on Mar 6, 2015 19:12:52 GMT 10
I took a long shot and sent the EWPAA a email asking if they can help with any history regarding plywood manufacture in Australia. Well I received a prompt reply from a gentleman who seems to have a bit of interest and he has asked me to send him photos and information on any marks found on plywood and he will do the research on them for us. Didn't really expect any reply so I think that I should take this guy up on his offer........may not go anywhere but potentially it may help to date some vans.
Trouble is right now I don't have the time to pull the information together from the various posts and I don't want to let the contact go stale. So is there anyone who has the time to do the time do this and either reply on my behalf or send it to me by email???
Koala
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Post by cobber on Mar 6, 2015 20:02:44 GMT 10
G'day Ken, Good work  I've emailed you copies of the 14 brand marks we have in this thread, will be interesting to see what your man makes of them. Could you also ask him about the grading marks, when they were first applied to Australian made ply and if they changed over the period we are interested in.... pre 1970. Cobber. |
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Post by akeepsake on Mar 6, 2015 20:21:48 GMT 10
Good stuff gents! Will be an interesting outcome I think and a great way to help date those old bits of wood with two wheels attached |
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Post by Koala on Mar 7, 2015 18:24:42 GMT 10
Thank you for the fast response Cobber, the information has been passed to Andrew at the EWPAA. I have asked him for ANY information in relation to plywood pre 1970.
Oh! and by the way.......he says that S1S stands for `SANDED one side' so I guess it was open to regional interpretation but at the end of the day the various interpretations mean the same thing.
Koala
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Post by cobber on Sept 24, 2016 15:36:42 GMT 10
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Post by mel on Sept 30, 2016 13:18:32 GMT 10
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Post by cobber on Sept 30, 2016 15:52:37 GMT 10
G'day Mel, Thanks for drawing our attention to that 1954 advertisement, I wonder what the trade mark looked like in 1954 ? It may not have been different to the one shown on dosses van that looks like a late 40s or early 50s van. I'll update my original ""Wresply" post with the new info Cobber. |
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Post by mel on Sept 30, 2016 16:26:22 GMT 10
Hi Cobber, Unfortunately I can't find any info on what the trade mark looked like in 1954. It sure would help to narrow things down.
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Post by 12Syn on Jan 6, 2017 7:22:32 GMT 10
Hi sorry if this is a little off topic but i am trying to find more info on a golden fleece road map display and the only info on it was a stamp on the back Bulldog Brand Hancock & Gore so from what i have seen hear that would just be the company that supplied the wood for the display and the logo was different again in 1966 (date of the Map only reference to age of display) DISPLAY:  LOGO:  Cheers |
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Post by cobber on Jan 6, 2017 9:26:06 GMT 10
G'day 12Syn,
Thanks for dropping by and thanks for showing us the octagonal Hancock & Gore trade mark, we haven't seen that shape before and you would think it would be relatively easy to find out when it first appeared ..... so we'll work on it, starting around 1966 which is the date on the Golden Fleece map which, as you would realise, may or may not be a good clue, I reckon it's a good clue so thanks for posting it 😉
Cobber.
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Post by Roybeth on Feb 14, 2017 19:09:25 GMT 10
Here's a trade mark, from under a seat in my Gypsy, Hancock & Gore marks already above, this one is a little different I think:  |
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Post by Roybeth on Feb 14, 2017 19:15:35 GMT 10
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Post by cobber on Feb 15, 2017 7:09:48 GMT 10
G'day Roybeth, Thanks for posting the photo of the trade mark on your Gypsy, have you established for certain sure what year the Gypsy was built ? And the link to the Hancock & Gore time line is interesting too, looks like they went out of plywood in 1981 aye ? wish we had a time line showing when they changed their trade mark designs.  Cobber. |
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Post by Roybeth on Feb 15, 2017 12:37:24 GMT 10
re Hancock & Gore trade marks - have sent them a message enquiring if they hold any records of the trademarks and years used - no harm in asking you never know.
I think Aquamum had narrowed DOM down to 1950-1953 but I haven't looked into it much further, I know its not later as it still has the wood windows, will keep my eye it.
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Post by Roybeth on Feb 15, 2017 12:48:49 GMT 10
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Post by cobber on Feb 15, 2017 18:26:55 GMT 10
G'day Roybeth, Ken Koala and I have put a bit of effort (and time) into researching trade marks but I think it is fair to say we kept running into dead ends. I have seen that Bulldog on that IPAustralia link you gave us but, from memory, I don't think I was able to find any of the bull dog heads we are familiar with, or maybe I just gave up 🙄 In previous posts on this thread I have noted a couple of sources to the general history on plywood manufacture in Australia hoping it might inspire somebody to help with research, but I generally post them as hyperlinks (there I've done it again 😩 )which may not be a good idea because not everybody bothers to click on hyperlinks. But if you are fascinated by bond wood trademarks and would like to spend some time researching them your efforts will be highly appreciated and well rewarded 😘 Cobber. |
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Post by Roybeth on Feb 17, 2017 12:56:54 GMT 10
Got the following reply from Hancock & Gore - unfortunately no joy for us.
Hi Helen
Sounds interesting – I’ve only been at the company a couple of years, and knew that we started as a timber business, but you never really know what the products were used for. I’d have never thought of caravans I must admit!
Unfortunately, we sold the timber interests back in the early 1980’s, and the records from that business have been destroyed in line with standard business practice, so I can’t provide any information that may help you.
I hope you can find alternate sources of the information.
Kind regards
Iain
IAIN THOMPSON
CFO / COMPANY SECRETARY
HGL Limited
Level 2, 68-72 Waterloo Rd, Macquarie Park 2113
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Interesting detective work lads! If you look at the stamp I put up from my 63 millard it has the S.1.S on it so must hVe been common well into the 60s!
?
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