Propert Caravans (Newtown & Vaucluse, NSW)

[Surf Tragic]

Source; Keith Winser 8th edition 1962

Surf Tragic

[Don Ricardo]

Hi Cathie,

You are correct on both counts. It was Trodler (now Vantoura) who discovered the serial number of one of his Properts (No 201) stamped into the plywood underneath the serial number plate. He mentioned it in his post which is Reply #2 on this thread, but the photos have been removed.

Don Ricardo

[myvan]

Hi Cathie

I was told by a Propert family member that a serial number is also stamped underneath on the frame of the van .

We had a quick look at ours but couldnt see a number so will take another look.

Couldnt find a serial number either under where the plate should be on the ply at the back

Regards
Kathryn

[smiles]

We called in today to look at the Propert at Watsons caravans, Coffs Harbour on our way Down South to pick up the Castle. The serial no is 5/257, so that fits in with the numbering system (means it was built in 1965). It's a great little van, we think the canvas poptop section is original, the canvas had really old clips, it all fitted perfectly. It's very original inside, eg cupboards,cushions, paintwork etc. we gulped when the young guy in the showroom said they were about to do it up!
Cathie & Robert

[myvan]

We finally put the annex up we got with the Propert.

We didnt realise it was as big as it is but at least its good to have a large annex





Kathryn

[Roehm3108]

Hope there are some openings in that annexe, otherwise it could be a real sweatbox Almost looks like it could double as a portable garage for the van!! ;D ;D ;D

[Roehm3108]

Cathie
I wonder if that Watson van is a 1965 build. With the round windows, it could possibly be 1955, but then the number itself would be out, as they wouldn't have built that many since 1951. Wonder if our Propert expert Richard from the Gong can shed some light on this!!

Ray

[Cruz]

Hi,
Well what an annexe. Nothing like mine. must of been made extra large. Mine is the width of the van and extends out about 6 feet. roof fits into clipps at the top with no overhang.
You could get lost in yours.
Cruz

[Roehm3108]

Hi Cruz
A Propert owner who came to Canton Beach last year has an annexe such as yours, and I found that it was very hot inside. Had the walls sewn in, so they could not be rolled up or taken off.

With the limited opening windows that these vans have, I would be reluctant to use a fully enclosed annexe - but that's me.

Have found that the Oztent seems to work really well, as it leaves an awning breezeway between the tent and the van, and is SOOOO easy to erect.

Having said that, I am having a separate awning the same as Richard from the Gong had for his green Propert as seen on the 2008 VV calendar.

Ray

[Cruz]

Hi Ray,
My walls are laced at the corners, allowing you to open any side.
Cruz

[smiles]

Hi Ray
Sorry for not answering sooner, but have been offlined by Bigpond since 2 Jan.
The Watson van at Coffs is definitely a 1965 build. Our Propert is 5/261 & has original no. plate & rego date from 1965, & the serial numbers stamped into ply under the Propert plate at back left (will take photo soon).

All our Propert details (round windows, back left elliptical window etc) are the same as the Watson van. As we pull more of the "renos" off our van we are discovering that many of the mods were probably done later rather than sooner, such as water tank under floor, roof hatch & back step. We're keeping all those things as we think they were definite improvements, but trashing many of the other things such as fridge, heavy stove, large sink, & zillions of useless little cupboards.

We also have a large light annex that mostly covers the roof. Yes Ray, will take photos soon!

Cathie & Rob

[cobber]

I am not real sure how relevant this advertisement in the “Sydney Morning Herald” of Wednesday 22nd February 1939 is to the overall “Propert” story but..... could it have been the germ that started an interest in Caravans for the Propert family ?



The caravan is called “The Open Road” De luxe Caravan which is a bit cheeky because the NRMA'S “Open Road Magazine” was in existence at that time.
Again this caravan reminds me of the 'van on display at the 1938 “Royal Show” at Wayville S.A.

The “Open Road” (caravan) is fitted with a “ Wind Charger” which eliminates Battery troubles..... they say .... Probably similar to this one from John D. Porter's “How to Build Caravans”.
They now call them “Wind Turbines” I think.



Cobber.

[bubbles]

My it is great fun looking through these old mags here is an nice one on Propert Patent in 1952 at 395 Pounds it was close to a years wage for the average worker but it only took 30 seconds to open up
Hmm Brian and I will have to get our act together

[Don Ricardo]

Apr 15, 2010 11:36:17 GMT 10 cobber said:

I am not real sure how relevant this advertisement in the “Sydney Morning Herald” of Wednesday 22nd February 1939 is to the overall “Propert” story but..... could it have been the germ that started an interest in Caravans for the Propert family ?



The caravan is called “The Open Road” De luxe Caravan which is a bit cheeky because the NRMA'S “Open Road Magazine” was in existence at that time.
Again this caravan reminds me of the 'van on display at the 1938 “Royal Show” at Wayville S.A.

The “Open Road” (caravan) is fitted with a “ Wind Charger” which eliminates Battery troubles..... they say .... Probably similar to this one from John D. Porter's “How to Build Caravans”...

Cobber.

Hi Cobber,

A couple of weeks ago I came across a description of a book called Good Camping. A Guide to Better Camping and Hiking. Issued and Compiled by S. Walder Pty. Ltd. (Tentmakers for 70 Years). The description from the bookseller was as follows:

"Book Description: 1938, 1938. Sydney: S. Walder Pty. Ltd., 1938. 8vo. Orig. illust. wrapper, stapled as issued. (40pp.). Profusely illust. in b/w. Produced by the makers of the "Joys of the Open Road" caravan. Contains advertisements of camping products, and suggestions for an enjoyable camping trip..."

I wonder if there is any connection between the "Open Road" caravan advertised by Properts, and the "Joys of the Open Road" caravan. The names seem too similar to be just coincidental. What do you reckon?

Just in case you're wondering (and I'm sure you are), I emailed the bookseller to see if there was any more info in the book about the caravan. She told me that the book is entirely about (tent) camping.

By the way, reference to www.ourtouringpast.com indicates that the Propert firm selling the Open Road, is one and the same as the family firm that built the folding caravans, so the two are connected. But I would like to know if there was a link between Properts and the Walders in some way.

Don Ricardo

[Don Ricardo]

Extracts from G Haslar & N Lowe, "The New Mini Vans"
Australian Motor Manual, no 300, October 1967, p 55 & 57



Note the reference to one of the difference between the standard and deluxe models being the size of the wheels. I wonder if this was the only difference?

[dido]

I have a Propert, badly in need of some TLC. I want to keep her but would appreciate hearing from anybody looking for a paid project. Dianne

[Don Ricardo]

Hi all,

This thread is headed 'Propert folding caravans', and contains quite a lot of information about Properts' well-known and very clever folding caravans produced and sold in the 50's and 60's. However, the evidence indicates that Propert also produced a small number of full-sized conventional caravans in the 30's and 50's, and possibly in between.

The best known of the Propert full-sized vans is the 1956 'Pink Propert' Trailaway caravan in the collection of the National Museum of Australia in Canberra, shown here in a photo taken by Roehm3108 in 2005:



According to the information provided about the caravan by the National Museum:

"Propert caravan, 1956
"Description

"This is a 1950s pale pink, rounded bottom Propert caravan. The caravan is made from plywood on a wooden frame with aluminium trim. It has Mexican pattern curtains, a linoleum floor covering in bright geometrical shapes, neat stowaway cupboards, shaded lights, an internal decor of cream, fawn, red and black, and is fitted out with 1950s furnishings...

"This Propert three-berth touring caravan was neither a production-line model nor a prototype - it was a one-off built for advertising purposes. It is part of a large collection of advertising material prepared by and for the Propert Trailway Products company of Sydney. Thomas Propert (1889-1969) founded the Propert Body Building Works in Sydney in 1910. For 20 years the company built car bodies for imported chassis but, partly in response to the economic downturn and changes to the car assembly industry, it moved into caravan building in the 1930s."
(Source: nma.gov.au/collections-search/display?app=tlf&irn=9022 )

Note the comment that the 'Pink Propert' "...was neither a production-line model nor a prototype - it was a one-off built for advertising purposes". And yet...the following advertisement appeared in the Sydney Morning Herald on 14 December 1954 (p 19), offering two Trailaway caravans for sale:


(Source: National Library of Australia nla.gov.au/nla.news-article18444124 )

This is one of several advertisements placed in the newspaper in December 1954. There is no mention of 'Propert' in this advertisement, but the address given is that of the Propert factory in Vaucluse.

There is also a photo of a Trailaway caravan on show at a caravan or motor show sometime around the same time.  This van is evidently of the same design as the 'Pink Propert', although with some differences, particularly in internal fittings:



The above photo is sourced directly from an article on Propert caravans on the Time to Roam magazine website which you can find here.

The National Museum information about Propert states that the company: "...moved into caravan building in the 1930s...". We have very little information about the caravans built by Propert in the 1930's. At this stage the only photo we have of a Propert caravan from the 30's is the advertisement posted by Cobber here. However, some more evidence of Propert's caravan building activities at that time is provided by this very interesting photo which is also directly sourced from the Time to Roam website article:



Now just in case you think the caravan you're looking at in the photo is a Propert (as I did until corrected by Vantoura), no such luck - it's an early Caravan Park (later Carapark) van! (Thanks to Vantoura for the correction. ) But what is particularly interesting about this photo are the words which are visible on the roller door:  "Covered Wagon  Mobile... Caravans...".  This reference fits with the style of the caravan in the advertisement posted by Cobber. In fact several caravan caravan manufacturers made reference to 'Covered Wagons' in the 1930's which seems to have been a reference both to a particular 'coach style' of caravan which was built at that time, and to the American brand of Covered Wagon caravans which seems to have been quite well known in Australia at that point.

Further information on the Properts' caravan building activities and some more wonderful photos are available in the Time to Roam article referred to above, and also on the Our Touring Past website here. Our Touring Past's Richard (Vantoura on this forum) has been fortunate enough to get in contact with the Propert family and to talk to them about the caravans they built.

Don Ricardo

[vantoura]

Hi Don.
The caravan behind the car in the last photo is actually a Caravan Park built by R J Rankin it was mistaken as a Propert van by the Time to Roam team.
If you go to the ourtouringpast.com website here www.ourtouringpast.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=24 there is a photo in the 9th post down and
the same van is on the right of the second photo.
Cheers.
Richard.

[Don Ricardo]

Hi Vantoura,

Thanks for the correction. I saw the photo some time ago and before it was published in Time To Roam, and always thought I was looking at a Propert van! Well there you go - the search for an early Propert goes on!!

I've amended my earlier post accordingly. Thanks for picking me up on the error.

Don Ricardo

[Don Ricardo]

Hi all,

I am posting this article consisting of a review of the Propert Folding Caravan from the April 1955 edition of Modern Motor on behalf of Smiles. Part of this article was posted a while ago by Kaybee, but this copy includes the third page of the article and I am hoping may be a little more readable because of the way I have scanned it.

Note that the third page includes some interesting information about the Propert family's involvement in the coach & carriage building industry, and then building motor bodies. Note also that the folding van was designed by Thomas Propert Jnr's father, also Thomas Propert and referred to as 'Propert Snr'.








(Source: Modern Motor, April 1955, pp 48, 49, 89 & 88. Page 89 has been re-arranged to reduce space.)

Don Ricardo

[Don Ricardo]

Mar 23, 2014 18:34:44 GMT 10 Don Ricardo said:

The best known of the Propert full-sized vans is the 1956 'Pink Propert' Trailaway caravan in the collection of the National Museum of Australia in Canberra, shown here in a photo taken by Roehm3108 in 2005:



According to the information provided about the caravan by the National Museum:

"Propert caravan, 1956
"Description

"This is a 1950s pale pink, rounded bottom Propert caravan. The caravan is made from plywood on a wooden frame with aluminium trim. It has Mexican pattern curtains, a linoleum floor covering in bright geometrical shapes, neat stowaway cupboards, shaded lights, an internal decor of cream, fawn, red and black, and is fitted out with 1950s furnishings...

"This Propert three-berth touring caravan was neither a production-line model nor a prototype - it was a one-off built for advertising purposes. It is part of a large collection of advertising material prepared by and for the Propert Trailway Products company of Sydney. Thomas Propert (1889-1969) founded the Propert Body Building Works in Sydney in 1910. For 20 years the company built car bodies for imported chassis but, partly in response to the economic downturn and changes to the car assembly industry, it moved into caravan building in the 1930s."
(Source: nma.gov.au/collections-search/display?app=tlf&irn=9022 )

Note the comment that the 'Pink Propert' "...was neither a production-line model nor a prototype - it was a one-off built for advertising purposes". And yet...the following advertisement appeared in the Sydney Morning Herald on 14 December 1954 (p 19), offering two Trailaway caravans for sale:


(Source: National Library of Australia nla.gov.au/nla.news-article18444124 )

This is one of several advertisements placed in the newspaper in December 1954. There is no mention of 'Propert' in this advertisement, but the address given is that of the Propert factory in Vaucluse.

I recently discovered another snippet of information about the Propert Trailaway caravan hidden away in plain sight, so to speak.  Amongst the listing of Australian caravans in the 1955 Winser caravan manual is this entry for a NSW-built caravan:


(Source: K Winser, Caravans and Touring Manual, No 7, 1955, p 77)

This provides the specifications for the Trailaway model - 12 ft 3 in long, 6 ft wide, and 4 berth. (Not sure how the '4-berth' fits with the National Museum's reference to '3-berth'.  Maybe there were different layouts available?) The Winser listing states that the Trailaway was constructed from steel and aluminium. This contrasts to the National Museum's statement: "The caravan is made from plywood on a wooden frame with aluminium trim." This may suggest that Propert built several different Trailaway vans, perhaps trialling different materials.

Interestingly there is again no reference to the van being built by Propert in the Winser caravan manual, even though there is an extensive 2-page advertisement for the Propert 'Trail-a-Cabin' model (what we call the folding caravan) elsewhere in the publication.

Don Ricardo

[luxford]

I have just found and read this post on Propert's and thought some may be interested in the earlier days of the company.

In 1983 I spent a Saturday afternoon with Tom Jr and his wife at their Watsons Bay address.

My interest was in the earlier days when Propert Motor Body Works was at its peak.
Tom had numerous original photo's of the various bodies they produced for motor vehicles. A lot of them of bodies they built which exist in advertisments in magazines of the period.


Tom Jr joined the company as an apprentice in the early 1930's and when Alfred left the company the company became Tom Propert and Son.

His brother Alfred and Tom Sr after setting up business in 1910 were in the right place at the right time when the Australian government passed laws so that body building businesses had protection from overseas. The majority of vehicles had to be imported without bodies or a hefty tax was applied.

This put there business in the position of being able to build bodies of the prefered European design which the population favored.

The business quickly grew, Tom Sr was invited to help establish the Vocational Training program which he did for a few years which was put in place to train soldiers returning from the war while Alfred looked after the business. Business boomed and Propert Motor Body works along with others rapidly expanded. This continued until the unions stepped in in around 1924 and demanded fewer working hours ( 6 eight hours days were in place) From then on sales dropped with strikes and then the coming of the depression depleted the work available.

Properts survived most of the others didn't. They moved to smash repairs, alterations, hire cars, building trailers and truck body work and busses. They received great publicity in 1929 when Properts built the body on a land speed record car which was built by Laurance Harkness and driven by Wizard Smith the renowned speed records driver of the day. Alfred being the Managing Director of the firm was seen to be the man behind the build but Tom Sr who was the forman would have been the person responsible for actually producing the body, as he was the designer of the camping body and the folding caravan later.

In 1923 they exhibited for the first time a Model T Ford with a camping body which consisted of a front seat which could be folded down to make a bed for sleeping. One of these Fords still survives. This conversion was promoted in their line of work and could be had for any touring car for around 5 pounds.

Tom Jr had original photo's of the bodies they built in the 1920's and some of the earlier premises which he allowed me to copy as well as a brochure of the various designs they made.

He joined the firm as an apprentice in the early 1930's and the name of the firm was changed to include him when Alfred retired.

In Vintage car circles Propert is highly regarded and numerous vehicles still exist. As a child I travelled to school on a Propert bodied bus which was owned by the company which had the Hurstville to Hurstville Grove bus run. The quality of the body enabled the bus to be used for many years after it would normally have been retired.

The caravan section of the firm evolved from the customers who sought out the camping body design but as has been mentioned suitable towing vehicles were usually only available to those who had enough money to holiday in better accomodation than the working public who would go camping.

Gradually they dabbled in caravans but Tom Sr's design of the Folding Van was definately the crowning glory of the business.

I might also mention the photo of the car and caravan outside Tom Propert and son business is not the King St address. The flat brick front of the building is nothing like the features of the now restored premises. Several other sites were at times occupied by the company, one being 20 - 22 Missenden Rd Camperdown and another for higher production of vehicles was at Enmore. early photos may be able to determine which site it is.

Before the move to King St they were at 71 Parramatta Rd Forest Lodge where the photo on the ROAM site shows a squashed photo of the interior of the workshop which is actually a panorama view of the workshop at that address which I have a copy of. The confined work conditions probably the reason for the move to King St.

[luxford]

I need to correct something I mentioned above, Unfortunately when something is written on the web it tends to become fact when often that is not correct.

One should not always go on ones memory as often its wrong. I mentioned travelling on a Propert bodied bus which was on the Hurstville Grove run.

This bus was not a Propert further investigation shows it was from another Newtown body builder Star Bros. Properts were building buses for the Sydney and central coast up until the 1960's.

I should also mention another "wrong fact" that is in the Roam Australia article. The egg beater which was so successful for brother Charles's Kitchen gadget company was called the "Swift Whip"

By co-Incidence I was in an Antique Shop last weekend and there were 4 different versions of the Propert Swift Whip egg beater. from solid frame to cheaper pressing from metal gears to plastic.
The wife has a pair of Propert tongs in her Kitchen draw which have been there for 30 plus years!!!

The "Ezy Whisk" was a poorer version made by Pope Industries.

[griffin]

Hi Gasyakker

What a novel period addition, lovely to see what people could come up with to improve their caravanning experience, so inventive and hopefully retained into the future.

George

[Don Ricardo]

Photos of Gasyakker's Propert 9.300 posted on his behalf:













































The serial number of Gasyakker's Propert (9.300) raises some interesting questions. According to the list of serial numbers higher up this thread, the vans with serial numbers in the 300’s start with an ‘8/’ indicating a 1968 build date. However Gayakkers' van has the serial number 9.300 which presumably indicates a 1969 build date. Does anyone have any ideas why Propert number 300 apparently was built in 1969, while some vans with higher serial numbers were built in 1968??

Don Ricardo