Why do they do it?

[raybell]

Yeah, yeah... I know... rules about towing weights and all...

But in the old days (to me, by the way 'vintage' ends at 31.12.30), all sorts of caravans were towed by cars. You didn't go buy a Landrover to haul your fourteen footer!

Just hook onto the Holden, Zephyr, Falcon, whatever you've got. I recall that my dad had an Atlantic caravan he hired out, it sometimes got hired by people with VWs, which towed it quite adequately... apparently.

So why, today, does everyone think it's a necessity to tow with some mother of an SUV/RV/4X4 thing?

[kaybee]

That's easy to answer, way back then the traffic flowed much slower that today, most of the cars were slower and the drivers were generally in less of a hurry. It was fairly common for car and van combo's to trickle along at 35-45mph and not get abused for being in the way or forced off the road by a B double doing warp speed, so that meant that the small cars of the era, such as Morris's,Austins,Vanguards,Consuls,Prefects,etc could safely drag a small van around at a speed comfortable to them without becoming a target. Those same cars could still do that same task today, but the circumstances have changed so much that it isn't really wise to get into traffic with a 'van in tow if you can't keep up with the flow and ,most importantly,be able to stop quickly when some hero cuts in front and then props. So, the best vehicles for high speed towing and stability at speed as well as effective braking , are going to be the big m/f 4WD's and pickup trucks. They have a big footprint on the road, they're usually heavier than the towed load and they also put the driver nice and high up , which gives a nice overview of the loonies in the buzz boxes, and that sometimes can be a big help in seeing what's well ahead, giving you time to set yourself up for an exit when things go pear shaped . Regards, Col.

[Ray Bell]

Agree that it's a better view, Col... but I think there are other 'reasons.'

For instance, caravans are a whole stack heavier than they were back then. And for no real reason, other than that they have more works and jerks in them, they're full of chipboard or craftwood instead of light ply and so on.

All the same, the legal towing weight for a decent sized car like a Commodore or Falcon is about 2 tonnes. That covers a lot of sins, and the cars don't have such a bad footprint either. And with modern vans, the van brakes should be able to be called upon to do their fair share of the work.

But all in all, I feel that the main reason is simply pose value. Just the same as the reason the trucks are used to take the kids to school.

[kaybee]

So you're saying then that a person should not be free to make the choice to drive the vehicle they like,or feel safe in?...and we should all drive same size , same look plastic econoboxes? Not me bud.

[exocet]

We tow our little Dorothea with an 80 series Landcruiser, not because i want to pose, but because we own another thing that can't be towed by a riceburner or a nice veteran car, a 2.5 tonne f/g boat! Can't afford to buy a specific car for the VV , as much as we would love to......., so the Landcruiser has to do for both. Anyway 4WD is also a great pastime!!

[Administrator]

Raybell says: "to me, by the way 'vintage' ends at 31.12.30"

From Merriam-Webster online dictionary .........search the word "vintage":

"Main Entry: 2vintage
Function: adjective
1 of wine : of, relating to, or produced in a particular vintage
2 : of old, recognized, and enduring interest, importance, or quality : CLASSIC
3 a : dating from the past : OLD b : OUTMODED, OLD-FASHIONED
4 : of the best and most characteristic -- used with a proper noun <vintage Shaw: a wise and winning comedy -- Time>"

Maybe Raybell is referring to vintage cars

[tinnie]

Ray,
I think there are a couple of reasons that big 4X4's seem to be the vehicle of choice for a lot of modern caravan owners these days. The first reason is the grey army who travel to remote places and sometimes like to use the 4X$ when they get there.
The second you have already alluded to, it has everything to do with the weight of modern caravans. In the sixties (and seventies for that matter) a twenty foot van weighed a bit over 1000kg. These days, the same size van will weigh double that. Why - easy: toilet, shower, fan forced glass top oven, off road suspension, 2 water tanks, grey water tank, AC, central heat. water heater, microwave, LCD TV, CD DVD, reversing cameras, computers, dishwashers, washing machines, slide out BBQs, satelite dish and god only knows what else. Hook that behind your average falcon or (worse still) crummidore, and watch the towcar literally stretch and fall apart.

This is the absolute beauty of vintage caravans and (more importantly) vintage caravanning, it is simple and relies on the great Aussie outdoors and the social aspect of cooking and eating outdoors.
Why people want to tow a caravan hundreds (or thousands) of miles to sit in it and watch the idiot box is beyond me. But then those same people probably think we are a bunch of loonatics for wanting to spend 1000s of hours working on our old caravans. ;D
A caravan to me has always been little more than a bed and fridge and coffee machine on wheels. To me the real attraction of caravanning is not the caravan ( although I do love my vans - no smart comments please gentlemen ;D) the real attraction is the outdoors and the friends you meet by being outdoors!

Happy Vintage Caravanning!

Tinnie
"Vintage Caravanning - capturing the true spirit of Aussie caravanning"

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Administrator
Maybe Ray Bell is referring to vintage cars?

Hmm... the forum us about cars... the thread is about cars?

Yeah, possibly that's the case.

As something of a purist when it comes to the definition 'vintage' when it applies to cars, it grates with me (and I'm very much not alone in this) when 'vintage' is applied to EJ Holdens and the like.

tinnie... I think you're on the right track... caravans have been overburdened with weighty additions that are far from necessary. But setting that aside, we live in a society where people have drifted towards 4 x 4s in a huge way, people who never see so much as the entry to a fire trail in years of driving.

The other week this was highlighted in a road test in the Newcastle Herald, where the writer explained that even taking a Jeep (Grand Cherokee?) up the driveway to an average farm would rip the front spoiler off it.

She wrote with great emphasis about how people justify their choice of these vehicles so their kids can be safe on the 2km return journey to their twice weekly music lessons and the like, pointing to the futility of having all that machinery wasting fuel and manufacturing resources and the energy of the globe for no reason whatever.

I see much the same thing on the highway. Most of the caravanning in this country takes place on some pretty good roads. A very small percentage of people actually go off road, actually needing the 4WD type of vehicle.

Yet they volunteer to suffer the diminished ride quality and other deficiencies of these vehicles to join in the fad of using 4WDs to tow everything from the smallest camper trailer to the largest of caravans.

Yes, I know that some late model SUVs have vastly improved in this area. But a lot of people don't have them. At the same time, very few of these large vehicles have the ultimate primary safety attributes of a modern sedan.

On balance, for most people, I believe towing with a car is a more desirable thing. The number who still do show that it's viable and I applaud them.

I don't, on the other hand, have any issues with people who do use their 4WD to go exploring and take themselves places where the go-anywhere usefulness of these vehicles can be used.

What I guess I'm saying is that I wonder why people don't think things through.

[Deleted]

Hi All
I have had my hand smacked a few times for being a bit outspoken but i feel its about time i came out of "self imposed retirement"


More and more i see "debates" on how other people feel "other people" should live thier lives. the type of car the " other person" should drive. The type of van the "other person" should tow.

Got me stuffed why the other persons cant just get on with thier lives and let the "other person" have freedom of choice without being ridiculed for making a decision that the other person doesnt approve of.

We are Austrailians for christ sake. freedom of choice is what makes this country great.
likewise opinions are good too. thats what keeps this world turning. being an individual and having a different outlook on life to your nieghbour. What i dont understand is why anyone would want to change the world to suit thier own way of thinking.
The world had one of those types back in 1939 over in Europe and look at the bung fight he caused.

Ok i might be guilty of giving the Fibreglass and aluminium van owners a bit of a "spray" about how timber vans are superior to thier vans ( just an opinion) . But this is all done in jest to keep this forum alive and bubbling along. 99% of us can handle having a bit of a joke and I cop as good as i give.
But please ....lets not bury ourselves in tit for tat crap .

Seems as though a great deal of the "debates' that start up on this forum is ignited in "Tow cars".
We have had "rodder v restorers" on several occasions... with comments like "why would you do that". coming from one side of the fence . The threads drag on for ever and in the end we agree to disagree and not choke the site with lengthy discussions for and against.
Mark ...as much as i am a lover of restored/ rodded /modified cars . i hate to say this but .... can i suggest the we dump the "Tow cars"section from the forum . We will still be able to see the cars in most of the pixs put up on the site and it will knock out a lot of the angst that seems to grow from this area.,

Meanwhile i am with Tinnie on his comments about vintage caravans....
Quote:... To me the real attraction of caravanning is not the caravan ( although I do love my vans - no smart comments please gentlemen ) the real attraction is the outdoors and the friends you meet by being outdoors!


well put mate


The best part about owning them is getting out in the great outdoors. Towing them with whatever choice of car YOU like and using them. I cant remember hearing one bad comment or a debate start up when us forum members actually meet up and get to enjoy checking out each others vans , each others cars and most of all............ each others friendship and commaraderie.

Ray
I asked Mark the same question about the definition of "vintage" not long after i joind the forum. He posted the same reply as the one in this thread. While i am well aware of the veteran, post war, classic etc categories in the vintage car and bike world.
I was prepared to accept his explaination and go merrily forward enjoying what this site has to offer.

May i ask why you have reverted to being a "guest"


Happy Vintage ( pre 1970 on this forum) Caravanning!
Reddo

[krisbee]

Hi All,
The heading on this section of the forum is Vintage Van Tow Vehicles, and the intent is to have a section where members can discuss in a general way the vehicles that we use to tow our VV's.

Ray, you are mistaken about the forum being about cars, it is a Vintage Caravan forum,and as such this thread has gone off topic.
The definition of 'vintage ' has been done to death elsewhere, and the for's and against's of suitable tow vehicles for modern van's has no place here.
Reddo I think has answered well, but I don't agree that we need to consider removing the section, we just need to remember to allow others their choice , whatever that may be

OK, back to normal guys, hope to see you all out and about one day,Kris.

[jrod]

Hi Guys,

I think i may be able to provide some insight to the question posed as my parents recently have walked down the 4x4 path!

They have a 18 foot 1979 Hallmark which is a relatively heavy van loaded. It was towed by a 1983 XE Ghia 4L 6 and a VP 5 litre Calais. Both which towed it well over a number of years.

They recenly purchased a Diesel 4WD with a 2.7L diesel. The car weighs 2200kg which is still heavier than the van when its loaded and this makes a BIG difference to how it sits on the road. Now they are looking at slowing down and travelling longer distaces, the 4x4 seemed a good idea.

Not to say the other cars didn;t tow the van ok, but the 4x4 pulls it with ease. The diesel gets 13l/100 with the van on the back consistently as opposed to close to 20l/100 with the other 2.

The whole rig feels really solid, safe and easy to drive as opposed to with the other cars.

Although i still feel Commodores & Falcons can easily do most jobs, in this case the 4x4 does it so much easier again.

Cheers J-Rod

[exocet]

Must apologise for entering the debate, it's just that i had to reply to the question that Raybell asked; ' so why, today, does everyone think it's necessary to tow with some mother of a SUV/RV/4x4 thing. ' When he see's us on the road towing Dorothea with a big 4x4 he'll know why!! Otherwise i think Reddo said it perfectly!

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by krisbee
Hi All,
The heading on this section of the forum is Vintage Van Tow Vehicles, and the intent is to have a section where members can discuss in a general way the vehicles that we use to tow our VV's.

Ray, you are mistaken about the forum being about cars, it is a Vintage Caravan forum,and as such this thread has gone off topic.....

Thanks for coming in with a smile there, Kris... however, when I said this forum was about cars I was being literal. If this forum isn't about cars, why is it headed 'Vintage Caravan Tow Cars'?

Perhaps I have gone off topic by asking the question I've asked, but I do think it's a pertinent question when asked in relation to the towing of vintage vans. Which is what these fora are about.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by reddo
.....May i ask why you have reverted to being a "guest"

Well, sure, if it doesn't offend you in the way that I apparently offend you by asking why you might tow with a 4WD...

It's simple, really. When I registered I wasn't allowed to register with my real name, as I have been able to do on all the other fora in which I participate.

This forum prevents it, but it does allow me to use my real name if I post as a guest. So I guess you could say I'm standing with a foot in each puddle. I'm a member, registered and all, and I'm a guest.

I do, however, expect the privileges one normally gets when one is identifiable. And I am, being in one way connected with the caravan industry and using my own name there too.

Those privileges extend to the expectation that people are reasonable with me as I am reasonable with them.

For instance, when I explained the actual meaning of 'vintage' as it relates to cars, it was expressing my exasperation with the modern tendency to list anything that's got worn out paint as 'vintage'.

When I asked the question that heads this thread, it was a question I wanted to have answered in the context in which I posted my opening gambit. It wasn't a request to be told to mind my own business.

So far, when you look at the responses, I think you'll find there's far more discussion about other things than there are answers to that question. That happens. But if we get back on track, and if we address issues that come up, maybe I'll at some time get a clearer idea of why people do it.

After all, that's why I asked.

kaydee has suggested, by the way, that people all drive 'the same size, same look plastic econoboxes.' Now how can that be? The only thing that I have intimated is that I am in favour of people using reasonable size family sedans to tow reasonable weight caravans.

See what I mean?

By the way, I don't really buy the explanation that people towed vans all that slowly 'in the old days'. When my dad took us away with his 16' ply van in the early sixties, he towed it with his FC Holden wagon and he cruised it pretty close to the median pace of the traffic.

That is, the pace at which there are as many going faster as there are going slower.

Of course, we don't have a median pace any more in our open road traffic. That went by the board when outright speed limits became de rigeur throughout the country. Now those who want to drive at a speed below the limit generally drive faster than they want (and possibly faster than a speed at which they're safe) and those who want to drive at a speed above the limit generally drive slower (and probably at a speed at which they tend to lose concentration).

So virtually everyone is doing the same speed. This makes overtaking more of a challenge, of course, and leads to heavy traffic bunching and frustration.

But I guess that's really getting off topic.

[Ray Bell]

My apologies, I left out a couple of words there...

'kaydee has suggested, by the way, that people all drive...' should have been:

'kaydee has said, by the way, that I'm suggesting that people all drive...'

[krisbee]

Ray, this Forum IS about Vintage Caravans, this Board within the forum is titled Vintage Caravan Tow Vehicles.
So far we have all been able to refrain pretty much from endless arguing and picking apart of other forum members post's, I am sure we all wish it to stay that way.Members have taken the time to answer some of your questions, but you seem determined to not accept any answers.

This thread is now locked,if any body has a problem with that, PM me, Kris.