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Post by brazbak on Dec 9, 2020 12:21:30 GMT 10
Hi All I am a complete newbie and may well have taken on more than I can chew (pardon the pun). I have bought an old plywood homemade van/trailer with the dream of converting it into a mini chocolate shop. I currently own and run a chocolate market stall business that I utilise a marquee for. This little van was going to be my "upgrade". I am reasonably handy and will give most things a go, however I have NEVER restored anything like this little thing and I am really hoping you can give me some advice. I have lots of friends with the right tools to help me but they havent taken on restoring a van like this before either. Just to give you a heads up - I have done all of my homework in regards to Council requirements and have all the required permits to operate out of a van as long as its used as a servery only and not as a kitchen (not the plan). I literally just want to pretty the van up, put in some benches with storage and space fo a small underbench fridge AND cut a hole in the side of a serving window. I have attached some pics. I have no idea what this is made of - I originally assumed it was marine ply as it was used as a dog wash! But, it may just be ordinary ply. It seems in good condition, the paint is blistered but its going to get a facelift anyway. The trailer is strong and well made with little to no rust. My BIG question is the structure. I want to cut a large serving window in one side. It seems to me that the skeleton of the van is actually the timber on the outside (pink timber) as there seems to be little to no support on the inside of the van. If I cut a hole in this van is the whole thing going to fall apart? Do I need to pull it all down and rebuild a stronger frame? Really keen to hear from all of you!! I will have loads of other questions but this is obviously the biggest one to being with! |
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Post by Roehm3108 on Dec 10, 2020 11:38:05 GMT 10
Hi OP and welcome. When I saw the pics you put of of your "van" I couldn't help but be reminded of the Playtex bra advertisement of years ago - it had no visible means of support - so also (almost!) your little trailer!!!! It looks like the pink timber pieces are what is giving the whole unit its structural integrity!! The roof too looks like it is warped from the rain/water. My suggestion is to carefully dismantle the whole thing so that you can save the ply at least. This gives you a blank canvas to work with. Then draw up a plan of what you want to create. Without wanting to blow my own trumpet, it may be worthwhile looking through the construction of my Cino Vardo baby gypsy here: vintagecaravans.proboards.com/thread/17226/meet-cino-vardoIt will give you thoughts about framing etc. You really need to seal that ply roof in some way. I used calico/paint after fiberglassing the joints. As an aside, you say you want to convert the van into a little chocolate shop. I would have thought you would need more than one little fridge for your stock. The temps in your van will be a lot higher than in a marquee, especially if you are in Qld, so you may need to consider that a bit more too. Good luck |
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Post by Don Ricardo on Dec 10, 2020 14:08:14 GMT 10
Hi Brazbak, I'm going to give a slightly different view to Roehm's... Looking at the front of the van in the internal photo and the thickness of the timber in the window frames, it seems to me that your van has a double skin. That means it has an external cladding of ply and another inner skin of ply with some sort of a frame in between. I can see some of the frame at the front where the internal ply has been removed. So that suggests that there is some sort of frame, even if it is not particularly robust. I will further speculate that there is window framing between the two skins, and if you take the internal skin off where you want to put the larger servery window, you may be able to enlarge the opening by enlarging the frame. However, the frame would need to be strong enough to withstand the weight of the servery hatch. One thing that it may be useful for you to know is that in the 40's and onwards caravan builders realised that they could build vans with pretty light frames and then use the furniture in the caravan to give the whole thing it's strength. The manufacturer of our 1949 van described the technique as the "aircraft principle of stressed-skin construction". So you may find that your van has a pretty flimsy frame, but that is not necessarily a problem, depending on the furniture you put into it which will give the thing some strength. At the same time it may mean the furniture needs to be self supporting to some extent, you can't just hang shelves off the walls for example like you might in a house with solid timber uprights to screw into. And you also need to consider balance - if you put all the heavy things on one side or up one end you will have problems with towing, even to the point of being catastrophic. Do you know much about the history of your van? Based on the shape it looks oldish, but I wonder if it's actually been built more recently (ie in the last 30 or 40 years - which is 'yesterday' on this forum  ) for commercial purposes. I'm basing that on the way the door has been built and the fact that the windows looks as if they don't open. In suggesting what I have above, I am not saying I know for sure, or that Roehm is not right, just giving you some things to investigate about how the van is built. After all Roehm has actually built a caravan from scratch, which I haven't. However, what you find out about the construction of the van will determine which way you go. By the way you mentioned marine ply and ordinary ply. They are basically the same thing. The difference is just in the grade of the sheets of wood and the type of glue which is used to bond them together. Marine ply is meant to be more water resistant than ordinary ply because the grain is finer, therefore there are fewer holes for water to get in, and the glue is not water soluble. Don Ricardo |
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Post by brazbak on Jan 10, 2021 12:17:15 GMT 10
Help please guys We have pulled our little gypsy caravan apart down to the chassis and have discovered more rust damage than we had hoped for. Wondering if you can share any experiences with dealing with this? There are two lengths of the trailer adjacent to the wheels that are rusted through and will obviously need replacing. In a previous life the van was a dog wash and these sections were directly impacted by the water (obviously). The rest of the trailer has some surface rust in places and doesn't look too bad. I have brushed over it with a wire brush to try and get a look at it. Has anyone had any experience with rust holes in a trailer and how difficult a job it is to replace sections that are particularly bad? We are on a tight budget and don't want to spend more than we need too but want to do a good job. Thank you. I will wait with bated breathe for your replies! Photos here: www.flickr.com/photos/191555333@N07/? |
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Post by Koala on Jan 10, 2021 18:06:15 GMT 10
I think that I can give you the answer which you are likely expecting. At the least you would need to replace those rusted pieces in their entirety. After cutting them out I would also examine the the inside of as much of the rest of the structure as possible particularly the A frame at the front. It could be best to use your current frame as a template and make a new one.
Koala
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Post by Roehm3108 on Jan 12, 2021 8:22:46 GMT 10
Hi brazbak
When I built Cino Vardo, I went down the same track you are on, trying to adapt a second hand trailer for my purposes. It didn't work and I ended up doing what koala suggests to you - have your chassis purpose-built. Luckily I was able to on-sell the second-hand trailer without losing any money. Your pics show you have a real "bitza" chassis, which has already been extended by an amateur. I took my second-hand trailer to a trailer builder and asked them to look at it, because they are the ones who have the experience. They found problems that I hadn't seen or thought of. You should do likewise and not rely on opinions of people who are (generally) not trade qualified. Apart from the structural concerns of the old trailer, koala's suggestion is also sound because trailer builders are a bit like house builders, they would rather build new than repair old - it's much quicker and cost effective. You may be able to utilise parts from the old trailer, like axle and hubs and couplings. Perhaps even do your own wiring???
As an aside, if you do continue with the resto and write on this site, perhaps you could put it on one thread and keep things together for the one van. It will give people a good history of what you're doing to it.
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Post by brazbak on Jan 25, 2021 17:10:00 GMT 10
So I am slowly progressing with our project and I have a wiring question! We have stripped the van right back to the chassis to find the trailer was in bad shape. We had a professional welder/trailer builder come and look at it for us and $600 later it's as good as a bought one! (See photos). So now we have a good foundation, we are planning the rebuild. I am wondering at this point while the trailer is all open and exposed if I need to be looking at the wiring or can it wait until the frame is up? Just not sure at what point I need to get an auto electrician to come and give me some advise. Thanks all! |
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Post by brazbak on Jan 25, 2021 18:44:53 GMT 10
Ok so I have been advised I need an auto electrician for the trailer light wiring only but that I need a normal electrician for the 240v work. With that advise taken onboard I am assuming now that I can continue the rebuild until I get the frame up and at that point I would get an electrician to come and advise on the 240v setup?
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Post by Roehm3108 on Jan 25, 2021 22:06:21 GMT 10
Hi brazbak. I guess you're finding out that this caravan resto business has no real shortcuts cost-wise. But it's good to see that you've called in a professional to do the chassis repairs. I notice there seems to be a big gap between the new cross-frame at the back of the guard and the back of the chassis. Allowing for photo perspective distortion, it still looks to be 1200 - 1500mm apart Would that be correct? My question is: what sort of flooring are you using and how will you attach it? If you're planning to have a plywood floor, you would need something quite thick to avoid having that springing effect. If you look at house joists, you will see that even with flooring panels, they still have the joists about 500mm apart. A couple more cross sections in there and the front would be recommended. You're on the right track with the electrics. The twelve volt wiring can be done at any time, especially the riding lights and tail lights. You should be able to do that yourself as long as you know some basic electrical stuff. I think from memory that Caravanplus website has a lot if helpful stuff on that. Check the index here for some really good simple stuff in the electrics area. www.caravansplus.com.au/guides/Good to see you've continued on your original thread. Don Ricardo, when he's in a really good mood, may actually move the chassis thread vintagecaravans.proboards.com/thread/18123/rust-treatment-welding-on-chassis and merge it together with this one, if we ask him nicely. He has the magic skill and authority to do that!! Not shouting DonR, just wanted to get your attention, in case you were reading this without your specs! |
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Post by Don Ricardo on Jan 26, 2021 14:01:39 GMT 10
Hi Roehm3108 and Brazbak, Merge done.  Don Ricardo |
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Post by brazbak on Jan 28, 2021 13:38:56 GMT 10
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Post by Mustang on Jan 29, 2021 8:39:18 GMT 10
Find a "fastener" shop in your area, Bunnys are the most expensive place to buy screws/bolts.
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Post by Roehm3108 on Jan 29, 2021 10:21:03 GMT 10
Hi brazbak Here we were thinking you were on a devon budget when in fact you're wanting to buy double smoked ham!!!  I know you will do whatever your heart tells you (we all do that), but methinks that for what you're trying to achieve, you're overthinking this project a bit. How long do you intend keeping this trailer? 5-10 years? If so, then think of your construction in that light. Not sure if anyone has advised you, but once you have done the extras on the trailer, I would treat the old frame with a rust converter and then perhaps cold-gal the whole trailer. Perhaps even give it a coat of paint. Talk to the Bunnings paint shop about that. Remember what this trailer used to be - a dog-wash trailer, so the timbers would have been soaked with water and detergents, munching into the flooring and trailer frames. You will be using it as a "dry use" trailer, so constant water and harsh detergents are not an issue. Plan the structure accordingly. You don't need a structural ply for your floor because any framing you put on to it will really be sitting on the trailer frame, which give you structural integrity. The main reason for using marine ply is when it is IN the water. Formply is used for concrete boxing work and the like so it can get wet without any major problems. It also has a resin coating that will make cleanup easier after any spills etc. It will also have a roof over it! At Bunnings, 2400x1220mm Marine ply costs $149 the same sized Formply is $73. If you end up using 4 sheets of whichever you choose, the difference is about $300!!! That could pay for a lovely padded vinyl floor covering! The same thinking applies to your choice of screws. Why stainless when for this purpose galvanised will do well enough. The screws you use will hardly ever get water on them and the framing of the trailer is steel not aluminium. You only need screws that are long enough to go through the depth of your timber (20mm) plus the thickness of the top section of the trailer frame (2-3mm?) plus a bit more to have a bit of thread go beyond the steel. In your case, 35-40mm would be plenty. Cost? Stainless decking screws are $112 for 250. Galvanised 40mm screws are $51, a different of $61! Do not screw through the bottom part of the frame boxing. This trailer is not worth over-capitalising on when it comes to what you're going to use it for, so find savings where you can in safety. Have you drawn yourself a plan of what you want to build? It would be good for you to do that so that you can work out your costing and decide on materials you plan to use. I presume you will recycle some of the old walls? Remember there is no such thing as a silly question with this sort of stuff - better before than after the event! |
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Post by brazbak on Jan 29, 2021 14:04:03 GMT 10
Thanks everyone - Roehm3108 your advice is gold! I actually went completley through the build of your Vargo on your post and have tried to learn as much as I can from what you have done. I have attached some images of my drawings, so you can see my vision for the final product. I have the rust converter, cold gal and enamel paint ready to go for the weekend so I will provide you with an update after that! My hand drawing is ordinary, but you get the idea with the curved roof and window etc.... Roehm3108 are you based in Brisbane?    |
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Post by Roehm3108 on Jan 29, 2021 22:53:37 GMT 10
Hi brazbak
Glad to hear you got some value from reading my Cino Vardo build. I think the build has many applications, including what you're planning, which is why Don Ricardo "pinned" it to stay at the front forever. I live just south of Gympie in Qld.
Now that you've drafted the elevations, it's much easier to envisage what you're planning to build. I'm a bit surprised that the chassis is only 2100mm long. From the pic, it looks to be longer - I would have said more like 3100mm. Is that just photo perspective distortion? At 2100,it makes the chassis almost square, if the width is 1800mm.
Remember that the serving side of the van MUST be on the kerb or passenger side of the van. I notice in your drawing that you've shown it on the road or driver's side. Another general thing to remember is that because the trailer is unbraked, your ATM cannot exceed 750kg. That's the weight WITH the total load on it, including (in your case) the fridge, stock and water. So be very conscious of weight through the whole build. Keeping it as a single skin will help a lot in that regard.
Your idea of a front to back curve is interesting, if you're aiming for that gypsy look with your decorative wheels on each corner.
Some thoughts from looking at your drawing:
I notice you have shown a rear door. With that style roof, the front and back walls will be at their shortest height of the whole van. Depending on your curve you may only have around 1600mm, which means that the back door will have to be lower than that for roof clearance and framing. You will be forever ducking your head to get in - not good if you have armfuls of stock. On the side serving wall, you show your lift-up opening at 1400mm wide, which leaves about 600mm to play with where you have the menu board. Why not have your entry door there? You could have a barn door style with the top half of the door hinged at the top so that there is ventillation for you and extra weather protection when it rains or gets too hot.It also means you don't need eyes at the side of your head watching anybody who might want to enter through a side door. Your menu could be hung on the bottom half of the barn door.
I notice you show using 70x35mm framing. I ripped my timber down to about 40x35mm to save on weight and avaid that chunky look. Personally I think you could do likewise perhaps with the exception of the awning window frame section. You have a 1400mm span so I would use something like 90x45 for that. Remember that as Don Ricardo said earlier, any cupboards you build into walls will also act as bracing.
Consider too, adding some high awning style windows like the old log cabins on the three sides not in use. You just need a prop of some sort to keep them open but will give good cross ventilation inside the van.They don't need to be big (say 500mm by 350mm) and you can use the wall material you cut out for them, add a bit of bracing and some butt hinges. Tack a piece of neoprene flat rubber over the hinge gap to stop water getting in.
You are piquing my interest with what you're doing! Feel free to PM me here or write to my personal email address in the member's information. (Right click on my blue profile name and it will take you there.)
Enjoy your painting!
Ray
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Post by brazbak on Feb 25, 2021 15:25:22 GMT 10
Hi All, Just thought I would provide an update! The trailer has been repaired/welded by a pro (someone who builds 22m boat trailers as his day job), Subfloor is down. We rolled the trailer over and gave the whole underneath a couple of coats of ashpalt paint. The whole trailer was treated with an anti rust product and then painted in our chocolate businesses branded colour - hence the blue. The timber has been ordered and the fram will begin to go up this weekend! Thanks for all of the help so far.   |
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Post by Roehm3108 on Mar 5, 2021 11:35:54 GMT 10
Looks like you've got a pretty solid foundation now!!
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