Retro fitting brakes

[pcc]

Hi All...........

I'm planning to retro fit brakes to my ply van as the weight of interior revamping is starting to concern me.

What's system would you recommend and what's the go for actually fitting it?

[rodp]

Hi pcc,
It's not that simple unfortunately. You will have to put a new axle in for brakes. You can either go over ride or electric. Have a look at www.caravansplus.com.au should give you an idea of what you are up for. For override you will need new coupling or for electric abrake controller .What wheels are on the van now?
regards, Rodp

[Tickos]

Hi pcc
I have up graded the brakes on my ply van to electric just last year and it was not a hard job the company I dealt through were very help full and have a good web site www.astss.com.au the complete setup was delivered to my door . It has made the van much nicer to tow behind the old chev as it now helps in stopping without panic.

Tickos

[aussietanker]

Hi all ... I think that i am posting this in the right place ...

i am considering buying an old vintage caravan ... apparently it has "vacuum brakes" ... (whatever they are) ... and the guy told me that i would have to either ..

1. fit a " vacuum brake " kit to my car at a cost of approx $1500 - I am not keen on that, as aside from the cost, it means that i could only tow the van with that particular car (Kluger Grande AWD - ) ... my wife is kind of keen to get a "matching" older style tow car at a later stage - possibly an older style holden - so i want to keep brake options as open to what is most "common" as possible

2. fit the van with electric brakes - he said this is the better option- i presume it means removing the axle - removing the vaxcuum "brake thingies" - and replacing these with " electric brake thingies " - however, he said it would most likely cost between $2000 - $2500 ... that's enuff green stuff to keep mrs aussietanker supplied with lattes for the rest of her life

I'm not looking for an official quote, but is that an accurate ball park figure ... has anyone here done this and is it this expensive or difficult?

any advice, stories - good or horror, experiences, opinions, etc ... or names of people that can do this well and competitively priced here in Sydney will be appreciated ... (pls PM me if it is NOT permissible to post that info openly on the forum - and apologies in advance mods if it's not appropriate to ask)

regards
aussietanker
auussietanker

[Geoff & Jude]

good'ay a/t

i wouldn't even consider vacuum brakes these days, they are old technology with older problems.
the only way to go is with electric brakes. the best part about them, apart from really good and adjustable normal braking, is that if your van begins to 'snake' as a result of poor loading and/or overspeed, you simply touch your brakes enough to activate the brake lights ONLY, or slide the panic control on the in car controller, and the vans brakes are applied, putting the van and car into tension, and the snaking disappears and you're back to 'easy towing' without ANY dramas, they're excellent.
i fitted them to our roadmaster (even though we had just paid over $600 to have the hydraulic over-ride brakes fully reconditioned) and have never regretted the decision.

our electric conversion cost $767.98 in august '06, which included a complete axle from tip to tip. we simply pulled the old axle out (which we resold on ebay) and replaced it with a completely new axle. you can reduce costs by not purchasing the actual axle, only the electric braking system but this means you will probably have to modify the backing plates or the flanges on your old axle which is a fair amount of work and you'll only save about $100. we reckoned it wasn't worth the hassle and got the complete axle.

WHERE DO YOU GET IT???

we got ours from caravan accessories at kogarah, commonly known as CAMEC. (they are also at macquarie fields-campbelltown) see link:

www.camec.com.au/ click Products, then click RV, then Chassis Components, then about 1/3 down thee page. this shows the brake system only, not the complete axle. you can order to have 4 or 5 stud holden or ford pattern so, matching your wheels is no problem.


you could also try barnses at lansvale, a little bit dearer but maybe closer to you.

anyhow, go for the electrics, the are definitely the safest system you can get.

ps. you'll also need to get an in-car-controller, these range from about $100 on special to maybe $250. i recommend the hayes/reese controller. simlpe design with a minimum of pesky electronics involved. (it has an adjustable braking control, a pendulum to automatically increase braking down hill or under heavy braking and the panic slide for emergencies).

hope this is helpful, sorry about the long speel.

geoff

[fbmad]

AT, My van was homemade in 1953 and has PBR/Delco vacuum brakes as well. I'll have no chance in hell of finding a working vacuum system to fit to my towcar and then I'm stuck with that tow vehicle only if I want brakes anyhow.

I'll be travelling down the same path as you in the future in finding a braking system but having towed vans with mechanical and electric brakes I'd certainly go for the electric brakes for simplicity and ease of use.

Good thing about them like Geoff said if your van gets the wiggles just lightly touch the brake pedal enough for the car brake lights to activate or slide the manual overide on the controller across and the vans bum will pull in line.

My van has Ford Pilot I beam axle so I'll try and modify either mechanical or electric brakes to fit the pilot axle but if this isn't possible I'll just replace the whole axle assembly complete with a new electric brake setup.
I'm waiting for the weather to cool off a bit before I stick my head under the van.

Terry

[Don Ricardo]

Looks like the comments are all one way A/T!! We fitted electric brakes to our 1949 Don (see story just posted under Members' Photo Albums) and we have found them to be excellent for all the same reasons as mentioned by Geoff&Jude and fbmad. We have been really glad to have the panic control on a couple of occasions to sort out a seriously wandering back end! In addition using electric brakes means that you don't have to make a whole lot of changes to the drawbar of the caravan (although you do have to have them wired into your tow vehicle).

We had to replace our axle and wheels to have the brakes fitted. Can't remember the cost, but it was back in 1983 so it wouldn't really be a useful guide now!

[aussietanker]

Thanks guys ...

guess electric is the way to go ...

that info has been most helpful ...


regards
A|T

[royce]

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
where the hell is Reddo in this debate? I bow to the technical expertise above but nobody discussed merits or demerits of manual override brakes (I'd like to know) - old technology but they work and, dare I say it, cheaper by a country mile. How fast do you blokes drive to get snaking? How do you load your vans? I can't imagine you in goat country so...........?

[trodler]

I agree Royce
You have to consider you are towing a vintage van. Towing a van that occasionly sways,
to me , is a far bigger problem than using a van with over ride brakes.
My Fj ute with standard brakes, and over ride brakes on the yellow van havnt had a problem.
Touch wood.

Cheers.
Trodler.

[royce]

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Aha, some common sense at last. Look at the weight of the van overall, how you distribute the load (I ain't posting that towing guide link again but it makes sense if you use your brains). Look at the brakes of your vehicle and determine what you need? If you don't need the high cost alternative, spend your money elsewhere AT. Like on whisky for starters and making a few features on your van. Mechanical override work for me, easy to fix, standard drum brakes (or disc if you want).
Reddo = you are missed. Last thing A/T - a HOLDEN?? The old grey motor, slow to go and slow to tow.

From the guide - for you Holden drivers

[jrod]

Hi PCC,

Don't do what i did and buy brand new white wall tyres for the van before getting the brakes done. Electric stoppers need 14" rims and i have 13"s. Not willing to throw them away, the guy doing the brakes is now upgrading all the hydraulics to later model stuff that is more effective. He assures me that my old power assisted drums will be fine with the new brakes.. Fingers crossed.

Given your starting from scratch, just go for electrics. From my experience, electric stoppers are terrific. Esp when the towcar is as old as the van!

Cheers, J-Rod

[royce]

OK, I bow to electrics winning this argument by weight of numbers. I don't need them myself and I still have trouble advising people to jump to high cost items when money (for me anyway) is tight. Still think it is also a question of correct weight distribution also, mainly because I had to change the weight ratio on mine and when I did things went much better. I also had to improve the baffles in my water tank too (the shifting weight inside a 57 litre tank caused a shimmy over 70kph).
Now I think about I guess we tend to talk about these things in isolation but I think it doesn't work unless you deal with a van as a whole.
However my mate and I were cursing his 4wd last weekend pulling my TD. We thought the gas conversion was gutless until we noticed smoke from the wheels of the td. I discovered I had forgotten to flip the manual override brake lever over and with the vibrations it put the brakes on. I guess electric brakes can't come on accidentally like that. we reckon it fairly flew once the brakes were off and I haven't dared check if any lining is left on the pads yet. Feeling dumb in Stockton today boss!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D

[raym]

Hi jrod, I have put electric brakes on my T.D. it has 13" HR Holden wheels but you must get HR wheels from a disk brake car. These are different from a drum brake car. You can tell the difference in the wheel, a disk brake wheel has a small hole approx 3mm diameter drilled in the centre section. When you order the brakes ask for a HK Holden stud pattern and the HR Holden wheels will fit. All hubcaps from FE to HR will fit these wheels. I used FE hub caps to match my FE ute. My FE now stops better with the van on than the car by itself raym

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[jrod]

Hi Raym,

Thanks so much for the info.. The van is booked in to get done on Monday so im madly scrambling to change based on your info. Would you beleive a family friend tossed away a set of HR rims from a Prem (disc car)..

I have a few questions for you so i will PM you with them.

Thanks so much for the info, Cheers J-Rod.

[Deleted]

I have enjoyed watching Royce gettin beat up by all you champions of late model technology. i stayed on the fence when the debate was in full song.

Royce . If you have a look at my 10 year plan TD which is made from an old van rolling stock. you will see it had mechanical brakes when i started the rebuild . massive big things which combined with the axle weighed near as much as the rest of the van.
i started out determined to run brakes on the TD but later realised the only reason i need brakes was to pull up the weight of the brakes and axle.
Theory came to me that if i get rid of the heavy brake assemblies i would no longer need brakes... i think i called it pretzel logic back on the TD post.
I ended up selling the axle and brakes to trodler and fitted a stock axle from ISP around $90 from memory. i now have the same wheel stud pattern as the ute. and the van weighs heaps less. abiet no brakes. The thing will never carry the load of an equivelant sized single axle box trailer and the authoritys dont call for brakes on them .. so why bother bunging them on a box trailer with plywood sides and a roof.

I towed matilda home from the 2006 all holden day which included heading down and up the big dipper near mauries place at Hornsby and also Moonee moonee bridge. i remember thinking to myself how well the brakes where holding the van as i hit the bottom of the hills doing 60mph. got home and found i had left the brake lock out plate in position after reversing my van on to my site at Clarendon. No brakes on the van and 4 wheel drums pulling it up on the ute all the way across sydney in heavy traffic. no problems. Matilda is a bit on the plump side too.
When i am adjusting mechanical overide brakes
I make sure that i leave no more than a small finger thickness gap between the overide piston and the brake lever when adjusting them. This is what the mechanics at work go by when building new trailers for deck mowers etc.

Get out on the street with the van on the back... do a burnout ( accelerate as best you can with holden grey) then jam the brakes on. Should be able to pull up quickly without locking up the whole shooting match.
I also no longer use sway bars/ load levelers on matilda. with sensible packing and better tyre/ rim combinations than the old 600 x 16s i have never had a "moment' with the big van swaying nor have the mechanical brakes let me down.
Out of all the brake options available they are the cheapest to set up and simplest in operation.

Hydaulics rely on fluid which can leak .
Electric brakes rely on electrics which can pop a fuse or fail with a broken wire or bad earth .
Vacumn relys on vacumn which can fail due to air leaks or crook seals

Mechanicals rely on inertia overide .....which will always be there whilever the car is moving and you put your foot on the brakes

Righto Royce now get up off the boxing ring mat and help me fight all these new fangle brake owners.

We're Newcastle.... united.... we will never be defeated.
Oh bloody great Reddo ... you waited till i got a belting before coming in and helping .

[royce]

Reddo, you're a star mate, but did you have to wait until I admitted leaving the mechanical overroide brakes on itin error. But when I think about it, they're all subject to dumb operator error so........ go for the cheap. I too have found I don't need sway bars after redistributing the load sensibly. I may not have brakes either, now.

[raym]

Hi
Further to my post on electric brakes and 13" wheels - I have just found out today 13" Holden Torana wheels will fit over electric brake drums and the bolt pattern is the same as FE to HR 13" wheels and HK 14" wheels
Raym

[Deleted]

Hi raym

14" Hk/HT/HG Holden rims will also fit the '56 to '67 Holden stud pattern. .....
If you are into customising you can buy 14" moon caps
to fit these rims as well

Other rims with the same stud pattern as early holden are
17" - 1934 Chev
16" - Vauxhall
and probably a whole heap more that i am not aware of.
Both are wire spoked wheels
ideal if you want to give your TD van that true "Vintage" look
Only downside is you have to carry a spare for the van in the back of the ute or mounted on the van . Tyres can be a bit $$$$ too. If ya stick with 13's you can use the ute spare.... providing it will fit under the TD gaurd and is disc brake compatable.

Also can use standard drum brake rims on your TD . Rare Spares sell spacers in varying thicknesses from 3mm up to about 8mm.@$19.95 . Also available on ebay for the same money plus postage.
These came out as standard on the XU1 toranas and where legal. They are not legal on anything other than the toranas but with the right thickness will solve any rim/caliper interference issues you may have.
Just make sure your wheel studs protrude through the wheel nuts until they are at least flush with the outer side of the nut.... anything less is asking for trouble.
If they dont ... then knock the studs out and buy longer studs from your local trailer parts place.

Reddo

[fbmad]

I'm stretching a long memory here and may be wrong but I've a feeling that early valiant rims will also fit early holden stud pattern.
I worked in a wrecking yard over 20 years ago and remember blokes coming in getting early valiant rims to fit another make of car but can't remember whether they fitted the early holdens of ford??

Any valiant fans out there to confirm??

Terry.

[humpty2]

Wasn't it the steel imitation mag wheel from the Valiant that was craved for and fitted Falcons??

[fbmad]

Yeah Col, Humpty that fitment might be what I was thinking of.

Terry.

[royce]

Can anyone tell me how that chinese link suddenly jumped in this thread? As for early Valiant, I've got an S model and the wheels don't go on my TD, a holden hub. Wait a minute, I've never tried. There's a thought.

[rvowner]

Jan 29, 2007 17:19:48 GMT 10 Geoff & Jude said:

good'ay a/t

i wouldn't even consider vacuum brakes these days, they are old technology with older problems.
the only way to go is with electric brakes. the best part about them, apart from really good and adjustable normal braking, is that if your van begins to 'snake' as a result of poor loading and/or overspeed, you simply touch your brakes enough to activate the brake lights ONLY, or slide the panic control on the in car controller, and the vans brakes are applied, putting the van and car into tension, and the snaking disappears and you're back to 'easy towing' without ANY dramas, they're excellent.
i fitted them to our roadmaster (even though we had just paid over $600 to have the hydraulic over-ride brakes fully reconditioned) and have never regretted the decision.

our electric conversion cost $767.98 in august '06, which included a complete axle from tip to tip. we simply pulled the old axle out (which we resold on ebay) and replaced it with a completely new axle. you can reduce costs by not purchasing the actual axle, only the electric braking system but this means you will probably have to modify the backing plates or the flanges on your old axle which is a fair amount of work and you'll only save about $100. we reckoned it wasn't worth the hassle and got the complete axle.

WHERE DO YOU GET IT???

we got ours from caravan accessories at kogarah, commonly known as CAMEC. (they are also at macquarie fields-campbelltown) see link:

www.camec.com.au/ click Products, then click RV, then Chassis Components, then about 1/3 down thee page. this shows the brake system only, not the complete axle. you can order to have 4 or 5 stud holden or ford pattern so, matching your wheels is no problem.


you could also try barnses at lansvale, a little bit dearer but maybe closer to you.

anyhow, go for the electrics, the are definitely the safest system you can get.

ps. you'll also need to get an in-car-controller, these range from about $100 on special to maybe $250. i recommend the hayes/reese controller. simlpe design with a minimum of pesky electronics involved. (it has an adjustable braking control, a pendulum to automatically increase braking down hill or under heavy braking and the panic slide for emergencies).

hope this is helpful, sorry about the long speel.

geoff