Vintage caravan with Door on drivers side registerable?

[bubbacluby]

Hi all

I have been considering importing a 60's Eriba Puck from England/Europe for a while to tow behind a classic mini.

Was talking to someone a few weeks ago and they informed me caravans MUST have a door on the passenger side (ie Not opening to the middle of the road)

All Eriba Pucks had there doors on the r/h side.

So If I imported one would I have trouble registering it?
Who would i talk to?
Where do i get information from?

These were created before ADR's, so I assume would be similar to the rules governing cars of the same vintage (similar vain to no rear seatbelts, no crumple zones etc but it is ok because thats how they were made)

I just REALLY like the look of something like this (not mine and is an image from the net):


Thanks Brenton

[Roehm3108]

Hi OP

Hvae a look at this Puck here vintagecaravans.proboards.com/thread/1475/eriba It seems to have the door on the correct side and doesn't look like it's been modified. As there are British Pucks, maybe they were made for both left and right doors depending on where they ere being sold. I think the van in the link is the same van I saw in the Mildura Nationals as that one has the door on the kerb side.

If you're getting one with the door on the road side, you will need to check with your state's motor registry people. they will give you the info you need. Why not import one from England, as I have seen them advertised. I'm not sure if the Puck in the link is still for sale, as it was on either ebay or Gumtree last year. Another member might have a better idea and that member knows who she is!!!!

[bubbacluby]

Thankyou for your reply.

Not sure if thats a genuine Puck or not as someone mentioned to me there was one in aus that looked like one but was a home made job (something along those lines), i have never seen one with the door on the LHS.

Yes most seem to be in England, but they tend to migrate through Europe which is why I mentioned Europe, but would like to import from UK. And the Pucks made in the 60's are around 300kgs perfect for a 670kg car to pull.

I am in NSW (This is an aussie site isnt it), If I wander down to the Motor Registry they will not know anything about what is allowed for vintage caravans. So where do I find out what is. May need to give them a ring to find out who I need to talk to.

Thankyou for your input though

[Don Ricardo]

Hi Bubbacluby,

Yes, this is an Australian vintage caravan website, so you asking questions in the right place.

Interesting to read about your quest for an Eriba Puck.

There's some more information about Marshy74's Puck and why it has a near side door if you click here. It indicates that it is/was the genuine article.

Regarding importing a Puck with an offside door to Australia, a couple of points that may be of interest/use to you:

1. Caravans (and I think most vehicles?) produced before about 1980 are exempt from ADR's and vehicle regulations that have been brought in after the vans were built providing that the vans have not been modified away from the original specifications. That means, for example, that vintage caravans with the original couplings are quite legal and able to be registered, even though the couplings don't meet current regulations. That might apply to a vintage Eriba Puck's door? Often the vehicle registration officers are not aware of this, so you need to be willing to stand your ground and argue your case. (I've said 1980, but I've forgotten the actual date - it's certainly well past the vintage era cut off point. Cobber is the expert on this and may be able to tell us the date?)

2. There are a number of vintage (and possibly not so vintage) American Airstreams (the big iconic silver vans) which have been registered in Australia with offside doors. I've seen Airstreams with offside doors registered in NSW and WA, and if you do a bit of a search on the forum you will find photos of quite a few. If Airstreams can be legally registered with offside doors, I don't see why a Puck couldn't be (although logic doesn't always apply in these matters does it?).

On a tangent, you mentioned that you want to tow your van with a Mini. Are your aware of the U.K built Wildgoose caravans built for Mini's? An interesting device. One of the forum's former members had a Wildgoose. Again if you do a search on the forum, you'll find it. An Australian designer also designed plans for a caravan to be towed by small cars, including Minis. It was called a Trail. He towed his with an Austin A40 and a Morris 1100. They're pretty scarce on the ground, but if you look for 'Trail' in the index for the Down History Lane section, you'll find it.

Don Ricardo

[Warrenk]

There are documents produced called Vehicle Standard Bulletin and the one concerning trailers, caravans etc is called VSB01 which is the regulations used for all details of of construction of trailers.  Unfortunatley there is a regulation that there shall be a door on left hand side or the rear of the caravan in there.  I also believe this bulletin has no cut off date.
If you import the caravan you will need a license from the Department of Infrastructure to import the caravan.  When you fill the application out you need to sign a declaration that the caravan will  be modified to bring it up to VSB01. 
The best way is to talk to the people at the Transport Dept in the state were it will be registered and find out there intereptation of VSB01.

Warren

[Don Ricardo]

Hi Bubbacluby,

Interesting info from Warrenk. However there are definitely a few vintage Airstreams with offside doors which have been imported from the USA in the last five to ten years rolling around the country, so apart from what Warrenk has proposed, maybe track one of the owners of the Airstreams down - or the importers (there's one in NSW, and one in Queensland I think) - and ask them how they achieved registration?

Don Ricardo

[Warrenk]

Here is a link to VSB 01  infrastructure.gov.au/roads/vehicle_regulation/bulletin/vsb1/vsb_01_a.aspx#anc_anc_1
3 years ago I imported a brand new caravan from the US.  As I was doing the compliancing myself (except gas) I read everything I could find on any aspect of compliancing about an imported caravan.
About this time there was a big crack down on shoddy compliancing of imported caravans so there was a lot of talk on forums and facebook groups about this and especially doors and where they should be.  Although at this time all states had adopted VSB 01so it was a non issue for me as I needed to fit a left hand door.  I did read at one time you could register a caravan in Victoria with just a right door if you were the importer, but if you sold or moved interstate and re-registered it you would need to install a left door.

Warren

[cobber]

G'day Warren & bubbacluby,

My understanding is ADRs and VSB01 are about importing and imported vehicles made after 1989 and mostly intended to be marketed to the public, although there is provision for 'one off' imports.
Not relative to us, this forum is about vintage caravans made before 1970 😝

However, they do give a link to a site that talks about an option for importing pre 1989 enthusiasts vehicle, that page tells you the option is covered by Regulation 17 of the Motor Vehicle Standards Regulations 1989.

infrastructure.gov.au/vehicles/imports/import_options/pre1989scheme.aspx

Motor vehicles standards regulations 1989.... go down to division 4.2
www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2005C00370/a0748568-0e1d-4ce8-8b37-9611eb08789a

So there is the first hurdle, getting the thing imported.😥

Then to get it registered in your State as an historic vehicle I still reckon the 'Blue Slip Person' should be guided by AIS #24, or its equivalent, PLEASE read this thread which essentially says ... if the caravan is still in the condition it was made (construction wise) it is legal.
If you, or anybody, has modified it the RMS aren't obliged to regard it as an 'Historic Vehicle'

Comments and corrections are welcome

Cobber, over and out.

[strugglebrook]

All good o wise one Mr Cobber.

[bubbacluby]

Jan 12, 2017 20:15:47 GMT 10 Don Ricardo said:

There are a number of vintage (and possibly not so vintage) American Airstreams (the big iconic silver vans) which have been registered in Australia with offside doors.

On a tangent, you mentioned that you want to tow your van with a Mini. Are your aware of the U.K built Wildgoose caravans built for Mini's? An interesting device. One of the forum's former members had a Wildgoose. Again if you do a search on the forum, you'll find it. An Australian designer also designed plans for a caravan to be towed by small cars, including Minis. It was called a Trail. He towed his with an Austin A40 and a Morris 1100. They're pretty scarce on the ground, but if you look for 'Trail' in the index for the Down History Lane section, you'll find it.

Don Ricardo

Thankyou for your comments Don

I didnt think of the American airstreams, thats a good point.

I thought the same logic as applied with ADRs and cars would be applied to caravans, but wasnt completely sure.

The Wildgoose's in the UK are Incredible, but very rare and VERY expensive. They are a campervan rather than a caravan.

On a similar note Check out this video on the caraboot. You will enjoy this one.

www.britishpathe.com/video/the-caraboot/query/caraboot.

But have never seen any pictures or heard of anyone having one on any of the various mini forums I am apart of.

Those Trail caravans really look the part and I really like the grey one, but still think I prefer the look and style of the Pucks.
 


Thankyou Warren for your comments. I found something similar a couple days ago when doing some research and thought it only applied to later caravans. I think I will talk to someone in the Roads and traffic authority (Or see if they can tell me who to talk to)

Don, thats a good idea talking to one of the importers, to see what is required.

Thankyou Cobber. That sounds like What I want to know. I will give them a ring.



Thankyou everyone for your comments, they have been much appreciated

Brenton

[Don Ricardo]

Hi Bubbacluby,

Glad to be of help. Good luck with the paperwork and bureaucracy, oh, and in your search for a suitable van in the first place, of course.

Every now and then I take a sidelong look at our Mini, and wonder what I could tow with it. I've been thinking more along the lines of a teardrop, but somehow the 30's and 40's design of a teardrop just doesn't seem to quite fit the 60's design (actually late 50's) design of the Mini... The Puck is a better combo I think.

Don Ricardo

[bubbacluby]

Jan 14, 2017 10:49:10 GMT 10 Don Ricardo said:

Hi Bubbacluby,

Glad to be of help. Good luck with the paperwork and bureaucracy, oh, and in your search for a suitable van in the first place, of course.

Every now and then I take a sidelong look at our Mini, and wonder what I could tow with it. I've been thinking more along the lines of a teardrop, but somehow the 30's and 40's design of a teardrop just doesn't seem to quite fit the 60's design (actually late 50's) design of the Mini... The Puck is a better combo I think.

Don Ricardo

You have a mini, NICE!!! What do you have?
(I know this is very off topic)
I have a 3x clubman GT's, 2x Mokes (one a 1275 californian) and a 66 Cooper S (One of the GT's was my daily, but needs a resto. Another GT is currently getting body done, and the non californian moke is my current daily). The others need full restos.

From my research Pucks are around 300kg's (60's ones). My panel van Trailer (below) is 220kgs. So its similar to me towing my trailer and having one of my brothers in mini with me.
And here is a picture of my daily Moke (photos make both appear better than they are)

I know very off topic, but love sharing about my cars and thought you be interested












I Thankyou all for your input and your willingness to help and friendliness

If I do find one and import it, I will definitely share some pictures

Brenton

[Rodnet]

Once again Cobber, you nailed it mate, dead right
Rod

[Don Ricardo]

G'day Bubbacluby,

Great to see the photos of some of your Minis and Mokes.  You started this thread, so I reckon you're definitely allowed to take it off topic for a couple of posts. Especially since I am glad to take the opportunity to tell you about our Mini... 

Ours is a bit of an amalgam (which is a polite description!). It was built up from a bare shell by one of our sons. Not being a purist - as I am inclined to be - he put the bits into it that he liked. So it has an 850 shell and boot lid, but Mini Deluxe winding windows and grill. It's registered as a 1962 Morris 850 because the parts we know the origins of were sourced from our son's previous '62 850, which was totalled by somebody running into the back of it six weeks after it had been registered. The current car is a bit of a sleeper, though, because it runs a 1275cc motor from a Leyland Mini van with twin carbs.

When our son could no longer justify in his own mind having a "Sunday car", my wife and I purchased it, because at that time where we live there was no public transport, and if one of our regular vehicles was out of action we were in deep trouble. Or that's what we told ourselves.    But just as important in reality was that we couldn't bear to see it go after having had so much of our son's blood, sweat and tears poured into it, and...it's a whole lot of fun to drive!

Below are a couple of photos of our son with the car, taken when we were on a 'father and son' trip along the Great Ocean Road, just prior to him being married. You won't be surprised, having read the car's history, that it also served as the bridal car at his wedding.





The photos are not the clearest - they were taken quite a few years ago with my old camera - but I wanted to give our son a bit of the limelight!

Don Ricardo

[cardygeorge]

I don't know if it applies to caravans, but before I do any modification to my '78 Kingswood I'll be talking to an automotive engineer. I figure if there's going to be anyone who knows the ins and outs it should be one of them.

Maybe it's worth asking for their interpretation of what Cobber provided?

[Roybeth]

Just a quick note regarding doors and register-ability - we have also have a 2000 Jurgens offroad caravan - it has two doors, one on both sides. Our one is a South African manufacture, but they did make models after this here in Oz, they also had a door on both sides. So I wouldn't think a door on the drivers side would make it illegal, unless it is some technicality in that you could still use the passenger side when on the side of the road. We think they only stopped producing the van with both doors when they brought out the Tuff Trax model.

Again a PS - now I've put pen to paper, we think they probably are only legal as they also have the passenger side door to be used when road side ?

[bubbacluby]

Thats awesome Don, They are a fantastic car and do become part of the family.

Anyway rang RMS technical enquiries and they told me it must have a door on the LHS according to VSB01. I didnt have much confidence in the person I talked to.

So I emailed them, telling them it was built before ADRs and thus should be exempt from ADR rules blah blah blah
They replied telling me according to VSB01 it must have a door on the LHS and I cant import one etc etc

So I then replied to there email using the Info Cobber supplied
Saying it does not need to comply to VSB01 and the requirement for a LHS door because the document that applies is AIS #24 and it specifically makes mention that if built before 1989 VSB01 does not apply and there is nothing mentioned concerning door side and thus should not be a problem
I am yet to receive a reply back

I am just wanting it in writing before I import one to ensure guaranteed registrability

So that is the latest.

Roybeth, The door on the RHS isn't the problem. Its the lack of a door on the LHS or rear that is the issue.


I do thank everyone for their input especially the info and links by Cobber, It has helped a tremendous amount

Brenton

[cobber]

G'day Brenton,

Gees mate, I can see a bunch of RMS blokes running around the office Yelling out "OK WHO's THE WHISTLE BLOWER CALLING HIMSELF COBBER ? WHO EVER HEARD OF A THING CALLED AIS #24.

Good on you for serving it up to 'em Brenton, keeps them on their toes.

I'd be a little bit careful about hitting 'em on the head with the AIS 24 regulation regarding a German built van that's not even in the country yet, although I do understand your desire to know IF AIS 24 will be applicable when you do get the Puck here.
I can see you getting bounced back and forth between the RMS & the Department of infrastructure & Regional Development until you get dizzy and give up.
Don't forget to hit 'me between the eyes with that Regulation 17 of the "Motor Vehicles Standards Regulations 1989", that indicates you should be able to bring the Puck into the country,  I reckon.

Please keep us informed about how you're going with the adventure and keep your sense of humour😏

What ever you do ....... don't blame me if they send you bankrupt 😉😀

Cobber

[brenten]

how about cutting the 'a' frame off and welding it on the back moving the tail lights to the front and towing it backwards that will put the door on the other side ...brenten

[Koala]

I would think that your van would come under the same rules which allowed me to register a left hand drive car which I imported from Canada.
The general criteria is that it must be over 30 years old and as it was originally built i.e. unmodified.
It must only comply with the rules which were in force at the time to vehicle was built but they may ask you to upgrade the lighting such as fitting indicators.
Edit: This is pretty much in line with Cobbers post which I did not read before my comment.

If you do import then I guess you will be booking sites in caravan parks which don't have a cement slab.

Koala

[bubbacluby]

Well i still haven't received a reply, so I have emailed them again.

I reckon they are running around trying to figure out what the rules are.
I will let everyone know the outcome.

Someone somewhere made mention of turning it around and towing it backwards and I thought Nahh, I wouldnt do that.

Koala, I would have thought the same, but it seems they dont really know themselves what the rules are.

Sorry I don't understand your comment about concrete slabs??

[shesgotthelook]

The concrete slab in the caravan park is on the door side of your caravan. You put your awning out over it & set up your table & chairs . If your door is on the other side, then you get the picture?

[bubbacluby]

Jan 24, 2017 16:32:35 GMT 10 shesgotthelook said:

The concrete slab in the caravan park is on the door side of your caravan. You put your awning out over it & set up your table & chairs . If your door is on the other side, then you get the picture?

Oh ok. I get it now. Thankyou.

I have never owned a van or been vanning with someone before. So thankyou.

Haha koala is right lol

[bubbacluby]

Bubbacluby emailed the following:

Hi Neil thankyou for your reply

I did send you another email, but did not recieve a reply.
After some more research i have come to the conclusion below.

Please inform me whether my conclusion below is correct.

The way I understand it. Vintage caravans do not need to comply to Vehicle Standards Bulletin 1 (VSB1).(This was written for importing and imported caravans built after 1989 I believe)
Rather they need to comply to Automotive Information Sheet # 24 (AIS 24), version 24:05 revised April 1992

This states in the first paragraph on the first page
"Requirements of this publication are applicable to vehicles first registered before 1 July 1990. Trailers registered after this date must comply with the requirements as described in Vehicle Standards Bulletin 01 ......"

Being built in the 1960's, and having been registered elsewhere before 1990. The only elements needed are those stated in AIS24.


Regarding the importation of such a vehicle

According to the government site here
infrastructure.gov.au/vehicles/imports/import_options/pre1989scheme.aspx

It says
"The option permits the importation of vehicles which do not comply with current Australian vehicle standards, and are therefore outside normal certification arrangements"

Trailers are mentioned below meaning trailers are included in the term "vehicle"


So, my conclusion is
I will be able to import such an Eriba Puck according to the provisions above set out in "vehicles manufactured before 1989 Option"
Being: "enthusiast, classic or historic motor vehicles that are destined for restoration and hobby use." and not being applicable to ADR's.

Then registration should be possible as long as it meets the standards in AIS24, in which there is NO requirement of having an access door on a particular side.

Looking forward to your reply

Thankyou Brenton Carter

Jan 24, 2017 15:17:41 GMT 10 bubbacluby said:

RMS Technical Enquirires Officer replied:



Dear Sir

As I understand it, AIS 24 no longer applied from 1996 at which point the Rules for Authorised Inspection Stations were amended and Vehicle Inspectors Bulletin No.03 was issued.

For trailers manufactured before 1 July 1990, the Rules for Authorised Inspection Stations states: “The Federal standard is similar in many respects to the State requirements which were already in place at the time. Thus many of the requirements detailed in Vehicle Standards Bulletin No.1 are directly applicable to trailers manufactured before 1 July 1990. The table below lists by exception the differences for each section of Vehicle Standards Bulletin No.1 which should be considered whilst inspecting trailers manufactured before 1 July 1990. Principal differences are the brake & lighting requirements and these are detailed in separate tables & appendices.” The table with amended requirements for trailers manufactured before 1 July 1990 include the following:

· Trailer plate – Not required
· VIN – Must have an impressed chassis number
· Brakes – See light trailer brake requirements, Table 1
· Lighting – See lighting table in Appendix G (trailers)
· Electrical – 7 pin connector required after 1/1/88
· Coupling – Not to be welded unless manufacturer specifies (must have name/load rating)
· Safety chain – chains not required to comply AS1872-1976
· Axles & suspensions – For close coupled axle groups ATM must not exceed manufacturers rating
· Wheels & tyres – No tyre placard required
· Fire extinguisher (caravan only) – Not required before 1/1/88

Following this table, rule 361.02 (2) for trailers manufactured before 1 July 1990 states: “undertake the Design Check in accordance with Vehicle Standards BulletinNo.1 and the amended requirements given above,” This design check includes the door location on a caravan as there is no exception listed in the table. Any caravan with an incorrectly located door will not pass inspection.

Vehicle Inspectors Bulletin 6 elaborates on the braking requirement exception for trailers and includes the table extracted from VSI24. This table is also the same as the light trailer brake requirements, table 1 referred to in the dot points above.

As shown in this and the previous advice given, there is no exception for the requirement for a caravan to have a door on the left or at the rear.

This is the further details from the State or Territory you were advised to obtain in the 3rd paragraph of the options from the link you provided.

Apologies for the delayed response, I have had some time off.

Thanks & regards

I Emailed back:


Could you please provide me a copy of Vehicle inspectors Bulletin No.3 please, as I can't locate a copy anywhere.

I also note you have said "As I understand it", could you please provide me with a more objective answer as to whether AIS 24 is still applied, as its relevance isn't upto somebodies understanding, but rather is legislated as to whether it is or isn't.

So it isn't looking real promising

Went and spoke to the local blueslip man and asked him and he couldn't see a problem with it, as long as I had the import papers, he couldnt find the document stated above and was going to ring his enquiries guy to check for me about the door on the RHS, but they were shut. Told him I would go back tomorrow (friday) morning and he would ring him for me.

Rang a couple of airstream places as well and they basically told me it must have a door on the LHS and people have vans without because when they were being registered the blueslip man wasnt aware of the requirement. Someone said if one wont pass it just keep trying different ones until they do .

So Thats the latest.

I think I might just eventually import one and then just hope for the best and that the blueslip man doesnt know the requirement.

Brenton 

[cobber]

G'day Brenton,

All good fun aye?
Thanks for giving us a look at the correspondence between you and Neil, I look forward to seeing VIB 03.
My Blue slip man (when he was reminded of its existence ) was still using AIS 24 in 2006 when I had Ol '36 registered, and I think other members have experienced the same more recently.

Did you notice the post down towards the bottom of the page HERE? that mentions another web site that gives us some evidence to further our cause regarding lights and couplings on vintage caravans.
Go to the site HERE and scroll down to 166 (2) that clearly indicates that couplings made before 1st August 1963 may, or may not, have the manufacturers name and its gross weight stamped on it, this contradicts the assertion (in brackets) by Neil, your RMS person ?, that ALL couplings must have those markings. Maybe that is something else "as he understands it" 😉😀

I have not noticed any mention on that site regarding what you're interested in..... doors
The fact that all caravans made in Australia have at least one door either at the rear or on the left side of the van probably means it won't get a mention either.

If the Airstream people you're talking to are about importing new Airstreams that's right, they have to comply with the ADR standards, and so they should 😝

Best of luck with it all, keep us informed please 😉

Cobber