1900 Pop Top

[Adrian]

Hi All,

Have a 1900 Home made Pop top plywood caravan on a steel chasis, (only 2 were ever made).

It is currently registered but needs new tyres and a little bit of work.

Just wondering what you think it might be worth.

Thanks

Adrian

[Roehm3108]

Would need a bit more info than what you have provided Adrian. 1900 is generally the date the Transport Dept uses when they can't establish a date for it. Can you download a pic or two? That would make life a lot easier. You say it's a poptop, which generally means it's younger than pre1970, but can't tell until you show and tell ;D ;D
Ray

[Adrian]

Thanks Ray,

Will take some photos of it over the weekend and put them up on Monday.

My Dad seems to think it is around 1920 vintage but not sure.

Cheers
Adrian

[Roehm3108]

If it is that era and it can be proven with some degree of accuracy, it COULD be the oldest caravan in Australia!! From memory, I think so far the oldest date I've heard of is 1927. We wait with bated breath

Cheers

Ray

[Deleted]

hi Adrian
1900
Dont believe everything you read on your rego label.
If you have a van made in 1900 it would have been drawn by a horse and cart. That is two shafts to fit up to the horse. most likely have wooden spoke wheels shod with solid rubber tyres. Made entirely of timber except maybe the axle.
Does this fit the description of your van??

If not then i suggest that it is a lot newer than you suspect.
Where abouts do you live??
Perhaps someone from this website can come around and check it out for you.
Not saying that it isnt a 1900 van. Just saying you need to give us an accurate description or.. sign up and post a few pictures of your van.
Reddo

[Don Ricardo]

Hi Adrian,

Are you in Victoria? If so those commenting on the 1900 on your rego sticker are correct. Private caravans and trailers in Victoria didn't have to be separately registered until some time in the mid-60's. When existing vans were registered, the authorities put a 1900 date on them unless the owners had incontrovertible proof of the date of manufacture. That means there are a lot of '1900 vans' floating around Victoria, including our 1949 build caravan.

It is interesting that your pop-top has plywood walls. That, plus the 1900 date may suggest that it was built before the mid-60's (again if you are in Victoria). There are a few manufacturers around who claim that they invented the pop-top in the late 60's, but I think these were aluminium vans (somebody can correct me if I'm wrong). However, the pop-top has a much longer history than the late 60's because John Jennison designed and built a pop-top in the mid-30's, and from memory there have been pictures of home-built pop-tops from the late 50's on the forum. Given that you mention that only two of your vans were ever made, maybe yours is home built.

You might like to check out these threads:

vintagecaravans.proboards30.com/index.c.cgi?board=chat&action=display&thread=1198409042

vintagecaravans.proboards30.com/index.c.cgi?board=chat&action=display&thread=1207470957

As others have said, if you can post some photos of your van, we might be able to give you some more specific comments. If you have a digital camera or scanner and need info on how to post photos, check out this thread:

vintagecaravans.proboards30.com/index.c.cgi?board=photo&action=display&thread=1110436749

Great to hear more about your van.

Don Ricardo

[Roehm3108]

Hey Don, there is even a Propert with a poptop It is on display in the showroom of Watson Caravans of Coffs Harbour. AND he claims it's orignal!!! The poptop section is in the rear (door) shell and gives headroom as soon as you step into the van. Surprised that our inventive Trodler hasn't copied it yet!!! ;D ;D

Ray

[Don Ricardo]

That's interesting info about the Propert, Ray.

I presume you are expressing some skepticism as to its originality??

Don Ricardo

[Geoff & Jude]

hi ray and don

we were up in coffs earlier this year and dropped in to watsons to have a look at "an old caravan" some locals told us about, which turned out to be the propert you're talking about.

the pop top is a canvas section as you can see from the photos.







(notice the later wheels/caps on the humpy).

he also had another bondy in the yard and on old ferguson tractor that he was going to restore.



geoff 'n jude

[Don Ricardo]

Hi Geoff 'n Jude,

Thanks for the photos of the 'Propert pop-top'. Can you check your photo and see if you can confirm the serial number, please? Is it '3.257'?

Once we've got the number we can ask Trodler to add it to his list on the Propert thread under Down History Lane.

Don Ricardo

[Roehm3108]

Hi G & J You saved me having to go through my old photos, as I took pics of it pre-digital camera time. That was the first Propert I ever saw and was the start of my search for one myself. When I saw it he had it sitting in the open air in the front of the yard and was really deteriorating. I do hope the number isn't 3.257 as that would throw out the whole concept of how these were numbered. Cos it would definitely be a 1953 model.

Yes Don, I feel that poptop conversion is a later addition, though still a very practical concept. Shouldn't be too difficult a projet to do either, and give that much more headroom over a greater section of the interior.

Ray

[Geoff & Jude]

sorry ray

that is the serial number, time to rethink maybe

geoff 'n jude

[trodler]

Dont worry Ray.
Its no major disaster , it only helps to narrow down some of the serial numbers to a year.
I havnt seen this Propert myself but,What makes you think that it would be a 1953 model ?
If I had to date it from the photos I would say it would be at least 1956 or later build as it looks as though it is running 13" Holden rims, If it was a 53 if would more than likely have FJ Holden rims.
Let me know why its a 53
Thanks for the photos geoff and jude.

Cheers Trodler.

[Adrian]

Hi All,

Needs a bit more work than first suspected as it was under a tarp, hopefully these pictures will help.













Cheers ;D
Adrian

[Adrian]

Forgot to mention it's Victorian and the hinges are piano hinges.

Higher res images can be provided

Cheers ;D
Adrian

[Roehm3108]

Ohhhh ...that's right, it's Adrian's thread asking about his poptop Got a bit side=trecked there Adrian - my fault for throwing in the diversion while you were taking the pics ;D ;D

What a ripper of a van you have found there. My guesstimate is late 50's early 60's. But what a terrific concept of a folding van. If only two were ever built you have a rare one indeed, and for that reason alone, it MUST be restored. I presume the steering wheel winds the whole thing up?

The value is impossible to estimate - very much a case of whatever someone is prepared to pay for it. My personal feeling is that in its present state, no more than $500, if someone is prepared to do the work needed. Always a difficult thing to value something that's a "one off", especially in that condition. It becomes a case of what the thing is worth to the purchaser.

Perhaps the others will be able to give their opinions that may give you a better guide. Are you planning to buy/keep it?

Ray

[tinnie]

Hey theres a rego number, wheres firefighter, hehehehe ;D
He's gunna kill me........I better apply to immigration to get out of Mexico.

Seruiously that rego number should assist to date the van.

I would say rather unique, amazing that someone has kept the rego going too, you'd have to be happy about that Adrian, even if the condition is a bit desperate for restoration. (I assume you are in Melbourne?)
Does the steering wheel control the up/down mechanism??

Cheers, and thanks for sharing!

Gristy

[Don Ricardo]

Hi Gristy,

The number plate G45-513 on Adrian's folding caravan doesn't really help in this instance, I don't think. The G-series plates began in the mid-60's and were used on all sorts of existing trailers/vans.

The fact that Adrian has a G45-513 plate together with 1900 on the rego sticker just indicates that his folding van pre-dated the date on which the new registration requirements commenced and the owner couldn't prove when the van was built (or the registration authority - was it the RTA then? - didn't care if he could).

Our van is G65-579 and is dated as 1900 also, although it was built in 1949. The fact that our van has a G65 plate reflects the fact that we didn't take it into to get it registered until pretty late in the twelve months or whatever it was that existing trailers/vans had to get registered. The owner of Adrian's van obviously got onto it before we did - or maybe he took it to a different location if plates were given out in batches. ;D ;D ;D

Don Ricardo

[firefighter]

adrian

good find .....your no plate ... the G series started 28 june 1963
guess about late 60's the no plates were issued
what do you reckon gristy

he's gunna kill me ...you are knot far wrong get on your bike and start pedalling over the border


f/f ;D ;D ;D ;D

[firefighter]

::)Don

maybe you dad let the rego run out for some years
before june 1963 trailers had there own plates starting in feb 1932 up to june 63
T 1 up to T 36.999 finishing june 1963
reddo has a 6+4 trailer with a vic T plate on it
maybe caravans had what no plate that was on the vehicle
the info I have is a little bit grey in that area
f/f ;D ;D ;D ;D

[Don Ricardo]

Hi Firefighter, Gristy and Adrian,

Great to have that date for the beginning of the G-series trailer plates - 28 June 1963.

I had an idea in my head that the grace period for registering existing trailers/van extended to some time in 1965. But maybe it was 1964. The reason for saying 1965 is that my father died in late 1964 and my mother spent most of her time time in '63 and '64 nursing him, which meant that the last thing she could cope with was worrying about getting the van registered. I have a clear memory of helping her to hitch up the van and take it down to the weighbridge and then the police station to get it registered, and I really think it was after my father died, but maybe my memory is playing tricks and it was actually in 1964. I'm almost 100% certain it wasn't 1963.

Maybe there is somewhere we can track down what the grace period was? Anyway, based on the combination of an early G-plate and a 1900 date on the sticker, my guess is still pre-1963 (with all due respect to Firefighter's superior knowlege on all matters number plates).

Don Ricardo

[Don Ricardo]

Hi again Firefighter,

As I understand it the T-plates you mention were for commercial trailers only. My father had a number of trailers with T-plates which were used behind trucks for his business. Private trailers such as caravans did not have to be separately registered and were identified by the number plate of their tow vehicle, as you suggested. Over the years our van wore the numbers of a '47 Buick (KS-686), a '58 or '59 Dodge Royal (can't remember the plate!) and a '61 Humber Super Snipe (HLY-392).

As another example of a van using the number plate of its tow vehicle, this is what I think was the very first number plate on Aussietanker's 1955 or 56 Don 120:



I can remember my mother explaining to me that new laws had come into force that meant that our van would need to be separately registered and that we had a certain period of time to do it in. I just can't quite remember when all that happened (apart from what I have recounted above). And of course even then, the separate registration only applied to trailers/vans over certain dimensions. I think that is still the case?

Don Ricardo

[minicamper]

Hi Adrian,

I for one am interested in the lifting mechanism. Is it a cable/winch or some type of Burman gear set up?
Were you thinking of selling it?

This post was put on some time ago and it has a Youtube link that has a Lambretta Scooter, side car and caravan in the 60's. The camper opens exactly the same way, but manually

vintagecaravans.proboards30.com/index.c.cgi?action=display&board=general08&thread=1199426687&page=1

Cheers Chris

[firefighter]

Hi Don R

if you go back and have a look at reply 18 I said " WHEN" the no plate series was issued & a rough guess when plate
number G 45.513 was released I have all ways been carefull
not to say when a van was built

don I know a lady that is high up at vic roads I ring her today to see if she can find out any thing about that grey area
of when caravans had to have there own plate ( not the one on the tow vehicle ) I will ring you tonight
Geoff ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

[Don Ricardo]

Hi Firefighter,

That is exactly what you did write. My apologies for misinterpreting what you were saying there.

I will be interested in what you are able to find out from your VicRoads contact. I have to admit I am trying to remember events of more than forty years ago, and sometimes events yesterday are a bit of a struggle! I guess my assumption is that because all the relevant existing trailers/vans had to be registered during the grace period then the first few however many thousand G-series plates would have been used up much more quickly than normal. I may be wrong on that.

Regards,

Don Ricardo