ANNEX AND AWNING FASTENERS

[cobber]

There has been mention of Marconi Track and clips lately.

One of the interesting things about this vintage method of attaching an annex or awning to a vintage caravan is the variety of ways the clips were fixed to the canvas.
Some had a brass loop soldered to the clip that was then sewn to the canvas


This, I think, is the type mentioned by Jenniewren further down this thread.


Some had one hole in the centre of the clip that was then fastened to the canvas with a single rivet


Some had two round holes in the clip and the canvas was clamped between the clip and a brass plate by two rivets.


Make up the backing plate yourself useing aluminium strips.


Ordinary pop rivets were used here


If you don't have the appropriate backing plate another way is to use two round brass washers and brass rivets
 


Some had rectangular holes in the clip and a special plate, instead of plain ordinary easy to find rivets.


Interesting variations that show there is more than one way to skin a cat are these ones.



Used on a lightweight awning with eyelets on it.


The Marconi Track and clips came in at least two different sizes... measured at the widest point of the track either 11/16th or 14/16th (7/8th) of an inch.


If you find some of the clips don't slide easily on the track a slight tap on top of the clip with a hammer will usually spread it sufficiently to enable it to glide smoothly along the track as it did in vintage days of yore.


Another way, the best way, is to place the clip on a piece of metal of the appropriate thickness and tap it with a hammer.


I find it much easier to thread the clips onto the track if one side of it is bevelled


Other people prefer to have both sides bevelled



You too could have Marconi track that looks like this, NO ! .........not the one on the left, the one on the right



As fitted to akeepsakes 1949 Jennison bondwood.



Other people hate Marconi Track because they haven't got the patience... the will to persevere... somebody to help them..... a box to stand on...or just the skill required to thread the Marconi clips onto the Marconi Track one clip at a time, they miss out on a great vintage experience.
If you have to fit the awning/annex to the van by yourself you can knock up this gadget that you attach to the end of the Marconi track, screw down the thumb screw ( well it would be a thumb screw if I had one ) to lock the gadget in place, tie a Manila rope to the awning, thread it through the pulley and take it back to where you're feeding the clips onto the track and give It a tug when you've fed a few clips onto the track.
You can see the same principal used on 'sail track' if you click on this YouTube link





The history and origins of Marconi track and photos of slides used on sailing rigs
can be seen if you Click here and here

[/a]
Other popular methods of fixing annex and awnings to the vintage caravan is by the “Turn Button”.
This is the only example I have to hand …. self explanatory I think, they are also known as 'Murphy fasteners'


Another way is the “Lift Dot” fastener..... usually used at each end of the annex or awning to anchor it in place...... I think


And then there is the Nylon “Stayput Fastener” that comes in a variety of styles and sizes.
The one on the left is for clipping canvas to canvas and the one on the right is for use on a vertical surface, you can see some other 'Stayput Fastener' canvas accessories HERE.


Aluminium Sail Track..... one that many people prefer looks like this... you can even get it in plastic



A fairly primitive method of attaching an awning to a van is this one fitted on a 1930s 'Jennison Pop-Top' ?? caravan.

Screw Eyes ! But isn't it good that they are still there, just to show us how it was in the 'olden days'



One way of attaching walls to an awning is this one humpty2 had made for his "Janorma" caravan
The hooks are sewn to the walls and just hook into eyelets on the roof of the awning... and in a flash it becomes an annex


If you have more information to add to this thread please feel free to do so

Cobber.

[jenniewren]

You have been busy Cobber! I have something in a marconi slide that is different again to all of the above. Which I will post a pic as soon as I can!! My little cuties are brass with the loop at the top which has been molded in all brass in one go! Then they have been sewn onto the canvas annex....you will see what I mean when I post the pic. J

[Don Ricardo]

G'day Cobber,

What a useful thread you have started! Especially showing the various styles of clips...

I have often read about Marconi track and had only a very vague inkling what people were talking about, given that the annexe on our van is attached using turnbuckles, which I presume is an older way of doing things? I had sort of assumed that Marconi track and sail track were somehow the same thing, but now I understand the difference.

Would it be worthwhile using this thread (or another) to illustrate the different ways annexes were attached to vans "in the olden days" so that we have a 'one-stop shop' we can refer people to when they are wanting to identify their annexe fixings?

Thanks again for the info provided thus far. Very illuminating!

Don Ricardo

[cobber]

G'day Don R.

I'll modify my original post and rename it to include a few other ways of clipping canvas to caravan and clipping canvas to canvas..... we'll leave turnbuckles to another thread because they are a different kettle of fish

Cobber.

[Don Ricardo]

Hi Cobber,

Thanks for that. Turn buttons...turnbuckles - ah yes, it was the former I was referring to. And a very nice picture you have provided of them too.

Don Ricardo

[Franklin1]

G'day cobber,

The "turn button" fasteners are also known as "common sense fasteners" (or one word 'commonsense').




Have always been curious about how that name was chosen...

cheers,
Al.

[cobber]

Thanks for pointing that out Al

I pinched this photo from This site (which is a US of A site) just to show that "Common Sense" turn buttons also come with a screw in the bottom of them.... which seems like a silly idea to me .... it doesn't appear to be a readily available item in Australia

]

Cobber.

[DC3Td]

Common Sense fasteners are a positive locking device having in most cases a spring mechanism to hold the rotating finger button in place via a slightly indented/impressed bevel.
They were originally designed for the (horse) carriage industry to keep the canvas curtains taut & in place. As the automotive industry developed they too found use in open-air vehicles (side curtains/canvas roofs) as well as military,marine & leather industry applications. gordon

[Roehm3108]

Thanks for starting this thread (a nice change from towel rails ;D ;D)

The marconi track must have quite a history, as I have seen this style of track/attachment system on old sailing boats. But try as I might, I can't work out why it was called a marconi system. The Marconi sail rig is named after the Marconi of communication fame, so named because the rig looked like his 4 transmission towers. Are there any sailing buffs out there who can shed some light on this?

Ray

[seeshell]

Hi there -

I'm having a new awning made for our van and I'm trying to find the hardware that Humpty2 used - in particular the hooks that hang the walls from the roof of the Janorama annexe.

Would anyone know where these can be found?

Also what would I use to fix the awning to the van - something a little less obtrusive would be great, but I'm open to ideas...has anyone used the lift the dot, or pull the dot systems?

Many thanks,

Seeshell

[JBJ]

Hi Seeshell,

I've had a few annexes on my old vans, both Marconi Track & Sail Track.

I detest using Marconi track, as its near impossible to work on your own. Its my job to put the annex up. I've had 2 vans using this, & both were a pain.

As a comparison, a sail track with relatively new rope in the annex is fairly easy for one person, once you work out a system that works for putting it up, & stick to it.

I recently fitted sail track to Deejay, & found I could buy it in raw aluminium, or powder coated white. I used the white as the rest of the J moulds at the corners had been painted at some time in the past.

I would think the clipping system you suggested would be worse than Marconi track. At least with a track system the annex slides into place.

With the individual clips, you would have to lift the annex to each clip, then clip it down. You would probably need a ladder to get the height, & have to move it for each clip.

Then you have to do the exercise in reverse to remove it. I reckon you would have to be a masochist to use them.

Sail track has evolved & is popular because its pretty simple & easy to use.

JBJ

[seeshell]

Hi JBJ

I agree entirely about Marconi track (sorry Cobber!). I do want to use the sailtrack for the connection to the van.

I was more interested in the J shaped clips sewn on to the walls to hang them onto the roof of the annexe (through grommets). Thought this system would be easy for me or the hubby to hang or remove weather permitting. But I know so little about what options there are, I might be barking at the wrong tree.

After doing a bit of investigating, I see the Lift Dot ones are quite old, and I think I can get all the pieces I want for both fixing canvas to canvas and canvas to van. I like that all you have on the van are a few little stainless pegs - more streamlined look on the van when not using the canvas. Anyone have experience of this kind of fastener for connecting the free walls to the roof of the canvas annexe?

Alternatively the Commonsense fastener. They're pretty easy to understand.

I'm trying to avoid nylon - the Stayput comes in all stainless for the mountings, but not for the canvas to canvas mounting (which is a bit disappointing). I really stopped enjoying plastic after bakelite.

I am trying to be faithful to something around 1950. Any advice (and pictures!) gratefully received.

Cheers!
Seeshell

[Roehm3108]

Hi seeshell

Would something like these be in keeping with what you want to do? Only 14 left!!

caravansplus.com.au/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=4734

Ps. You weren't even born when bakelite was invented ;D ;D ;D

[seeshell]

Hi Ray

My canvas man can get the turnbuckles (similar to the ones you have linked - ta!) in stainless which would be ok.

But this is the picture I was talking about - see those hooks holding the wall to the roof?



I'm not sure what they're called, so I'm having trouble searching the net for them - which usually is pretty fruitful, but not in this case.

I might have to end up with something else.

Thanks Ray,
Carley

[JBJ]

Hi Seeshell,

we had a similar hook supplied with the new annex for Lucille, So they are readily available at a canvas fabricators.

I get myself into trouble with purists when I state things like "the world progresses". I see no need to be fanatical about history when the substitute product is very similar in function & appearance, & other than purists nobody would know the difference.

When you are putting the awning up in the wind & rain, you will always appreciate it going up easily, & forget the fact that it isnt historically correct

JBJ

[JBJ]

Hi All,

I just realised I hadnt posted any pix of Lucilles annex I had custom made, in the thread "Homemade 1959 - jailbarjuice new van "

So I'm posting them now on the original thread.
A lot of things Seeshell's looking at are adressed in these pix

JBJ

[cobber]

G'day seeshell,

I seem to remember humpty2 saying the brass hooks were not easy to find, he regarded himself lucky to have them.
The Stayput mob have what they call “Marquee Hooks” …. made from nylon, not quite the same thing.

I can't remember seeing the “lift dot” fasteners having been used along the full length of an awning to fasten it to the van....apart from the inconvenience JBJ mentioned, which would be no worse than using Turn Buttons , I suppose they would work
If anybody has used them....put your hand up

Cobber.

[sportsman 1]

Hi all,

apparently the brass Marquee hooks went out of production a couple of years ago. I looked at Humpty's annex at Cowra and decided that was the way I would do mine. I tried Humpty's source, sorry, all gone.

I searched the net and made dozens of phone calls, found 22 at Sunshine Canvas in Queensland (they thought they had heaps but they had used all but 22 they had on a Marquee which they finished the morning I rang??.) By the way if anyone needs them they do have lots of new brass staples available.

Bought some old annex walls, half of the hooks were missing but at least I got another 22 second hand ones off it.

Got onto some last week, finally have enough to do my annex.

I suggest if anyone knows where there are any stocks of these go and buy them while you can, or at least let us know where they are so we can.

JBJ, any clues to anywhere specifically?

On to the next problem, anyone got or know where to get some original type BRASS zippers for the door, etc?

Cheers,

Leigh.

[mikeoz22]

So if you have a Marconi track fitted to your van and want an Annex made for it - can you still get the Marconi clips for the Annex?

[cobber]

G'day Mike,

I have the clips in both sizes but not the plates as shown in the fourth photo up top of this thread.
I used a strip of aluminium 1/2 inch wide I got at the green shed to make the plates.

Let me know what size clip you need and how many

Cobber.

[humpyboy]

For anyone who may be interested, I have on my Roadcruiser a length of Marconi track that I intend removing (one day) when I find a ladder from which I wont fall ;D which will be up for grabs, haven't measured it as yet but at a guess I'd say it was the smaller of the two.

[caboodle69]

Hi, is it possible to get flexible sail track fitted along the ( curved) roof line of a 1969 valiant viscount- or would I need to have to get press studs? ( for a simple annex) - and does anyone know someone (in Melbourne) who could fit one for me? Cheers, Fionna

[sportsman 1]

The aluminium sailtrack is available at any aluminium retailer.

It is just a matter of forming it to the shape of your roof but be careful as the new stuff wont go around sharp corners too easily.

It should be ok to shape around the main part of the roof though.

Any caravan repairer or annex maker should be able to do the job for you if you dont want to do it yourself.

Cheers,

Leigh.

[akeepsake]

Jan 21, 2014 11:09:20 GMT 10 caboodle69 said:

Hi, is it possible to get flexible sail track fitted along the ( curved) roof line of a 1969 valiant viscount- or would I need to have to get press studs? ( for a simple annex) - and does anyone know someone (in Melbourne) who could fit one for me? Cheers, Fionna

Thread a nice thick as you can rope through the sailtrack when bending to avoid kinking or the track narrowing ( a annex guy named Larry told me that

[cobber]

24 Feb 2012 at 5:36pm
Quote
Post by Roehm3108 on 24 Feb 2012 at 5:36pm

Thanks for starting this thread (a nice change from towel rails ;D ;D)

The marconi track must have quite a history, as I have seen this style of track/attachment system on old sailing boats. But try as I might, I can't work out why it was called a marconi system. The Marconi sail rig is named after the Marconi of communication fame, so named because the rig looked like his 4 transmission towers. Are there any sailing buffs out there who can shed some light on this?

Ray.


G'day Ray,

Don't know about you but.... I've given up waiting for a sailing buff to come along and enlighten us so.... here's my best shot.

What we call 'Marconi track' & 'Clips' were originally designed by an American by the name of Nathanael Green Herreshoff 1848-1938, in a slightly different form for use in sailing rigs ( as you have told us above).
My best guess is that they were invented sometime in the late 1800s or early 1900s so you are right, they do have a long history.

The track was called 'Sail track' and the clips are referred to as 'Sail Track Slides' or occasionally 'Sail Track Cars' .... They are still available in America and the UK... And also in Australia, all though I can't find anywhere when they are called 'Marconi' track.

Again ....as you say they were/are used on Marconi sailing rigs, they were originally called Bermuda rigs' so... maybe over time the tracks adopted the name Marconi on that account ?

Anyway.... Here are a few photos of the track and clips'/slides still available in Australia from Classic Boat Supplies in Sydney & Boat Craft Pacific in Loganholme Qld......whether they are compatible with our Marconi tracks I don't know ?
You will notice from the prices this method of fixing awning or annex to vintage caravan was reserved for those who REALLY care about tradition.  ?










Cobber.