Puzzle for all you West Australian V V'ers...

[Don Ricardo]

Evening all,

We recently had a bit of success working out the link between Sunliner and Gracemur caravans (thanks to Banno and Boblor who were able to contribute quite a bit of info).

Now here's one for our West Australian V V'ers! First check out this Aristocrat van which was once owned by Trev:



...and the Aristocrat logo (thanks to Daggsey and Carrots for pointing me to this pic on the forum):



Now check out this Aristavan recently purchased by Willyn:





The thing that struck me particularly about these two vans is the similar (identical?) profile, and especially the unusual and relatively small front windows placed under the quite prominent front bulkhead/bulge (or whatever you call that particular stylistic feature).

Now checkout the Aristavan logo:



Uh-huh - it is pretty clear that Aristocrat vans and Aristavans came out of the same factory. But here's the puzzle:

1. Did Aristocrat change it's name to Aristavan at some point, and if so when, or did Aristocrat just decide one day to call their vans 'Aristavan' because it sounded kinda cool?

2. What does the 'C & W' on both logos stand for?

3. Is the proper designation for the vans actually C... & W... Aristocrat and C... & W... Aristavan?

4. Did Aristocrat/Aristavan only build small vans?

5. The Aristocrat logo says it is Mk II - what did Mk I look like?

I note the address given on the Aristocrat logo is 'Caravanland, Scarborough Beach Road, Osborne Park'. Does that provide any clues to solve the puzzle?

Don Ricardo

[Don Ricardo]

Hi all,

Just thought I'd give this thread a bump up in case anybody can throw some light on the Aristocrat/Aristavan puzzle for me. Details are in my original post.

Don Ricardo

[Franklin1]

Hi DonR, I can't answer any of your questions, sorry.

Having just read your other thread about Chesney vans, I was looking through my collection of caravan photos, and Chesney made a van in the mid-1960s that has very similar styling at the front...



...a bulbous 'nose' above the window, and that sloping section underneath.

The other brand I've seen that sort of styling on before is the Escort in our DHL section.

You have to wonder who was copying from whom in those days??

cheers,
Al.

[cobber]

Questions ..questions …..questions

Of course you're right Al, re-badging was a common practice it seems, and the challenge they give us is to try and find what was the original brand name..... I'm beginning to think......... why bother, once we establish it is a re-brand... it's getting too hard ?

The clue Don R. gives us “Scarborough Beach Rd. Osborne” gives the clue (which is what clues do : to determine that a firm by the name of “Paw Caravan Co.” were at that address. They first get a mention in the “Caravan Trade Directories” in 1957 and are still there in 1962.

I think we can assume the “Aristavan “ / “Aristocrate” is a 1960s product because …. aluminium.. and that exaggerated “eyebrow” which was a feature on a few models of a few brands in the early 60's....Millard, Northern, Viscount, Litecraft, super large Franklins,..... and as Al said Chesney, but none of them thought petite little windows at the front like these were adequate.

So..... I tend to agree it's / they are re-badged some thing or other and the "Chesney" looks close to the money... did Chesney sell kits, that might be the answer.

Cobber.

[aza]

Uh-huh - it is pretty clear that Aristocrat vans and Aristavans came out of the same factory. But here's the puzzle:

1. Did Aristocrat change it's name to Aristavan at some point, and if so when, or did Aristocrat just decide one day to call their vans 'Aristavan' because it sounded kinda cool?

2. What does the 'C & W' on both logos stand for?

3. Is the proper designation for the vans actually C... & W... Aristocrat and C... & W... Aristavan?

4. Did Aristocrat/Aristavan only build small vans?

5. The Aristocrat logo says it is Mk II - what did Mk I look like?

I note the address given on the Aristocrat logo is 'Caravanland, Scarborough Beach Road, Osborne Park'. Does that provide any clues to solve the puzzle?

Don Ricardo[/quote]

So I thought I would ask a few questions about my little Aristavan but it appears the questions have already been asked but unfortunately no answers??
My feeling is the name Aristacrat came after Aristavan. I originally assumed that maybe Aristavan was the name given to the 9FT model but it seems that's not the case as we have a picture of a 9FT with the name Aristacrat.
Also I have seen many Aristacrat vans, always MK2 and never a MK1, including a MK2 with a very similar shape to the Carapark toaster style models.
All of them have been completely aluminium unlike the Aristavan with ply (?) sides.
So the question still remains, is there a MK1 ? and if Aristavan name did come first why the change ?
As for the C & W, I was told from someone that also has a mini Aristavan that they have always believed it stood for Country & Western

Attachment Deleted

[Don Ricardo]

G'day Aza,

Really intriguing to hear about your Aristavan, and the fact that it has ply sides.

I'd forgotten I'd asked all those questions! Well it was close to five years ago, so maybe that's not so surprising. However, I did come across a bit more information about Aristavans and Aristocrats a while ago which maybe answers some questions, but mostly not!

The following advert and promotional info was published in the 1967 Winser:


(Source: K Winser, Caravan Manual & Tourist Park Guide,1967, page 159)

The Caravan Specifications list in the Manual lists both Aristocrat and Aristavan. The Aristocrat section lists nine different models, ranging in size from 12 ft 6 in to 29 ft, and weighing from 13 cwt to 37 cwt, and all clad in aluninium.

The Aristavan section lists four models, ranging in size from 9 ft to 16 ft, and weighing from 9 cwt to 17 cwt, and clad in "Crezon/aluminium". Google tells me that 'Crezon' was/is external-grade ply with a pre-coated surface, so probably similar to Resdcote used by other van manufacturers. (These days Crezon seems to be mainly used for outdoor signage.)

Comparing the 16 ft Aristocrat and Aristavan models (the only common size between the two), the Aristocrat is 2 in wider, weighs about 1 cwt more, and cost $200 more.

So what does all this tell us?

• Aristocrat and Aristavan were built by Caravan Industries Pty Ltd, and were sold simultaneously, at least for a period.
• Based on the Winser advert referring to the 'Aristavan series' being lightweight, and the difference in specifications, it seems like the Aristavan may have been the lightweight and/or budget range, while the Aristocrat may have been the more up market range.
• It seems like the main obvious identifiying difference between the two ranges (at least in 1967) was that the Aristavan's sides were clad in Crezon/ply...except that Willyn's Aristavan is fully clad in aluminium. Go figure?

All interesting stuff, but it doesn't answer the questions: Which came first, the Aristavan or the Aristocrat, or did they always exist together? What does C&W stand for, if not Country & Western? And what did the Mk 1 vans look like?

Still a bit of a puzzle, eh, Aza?

What does the front of your van look like? Is it similar to Trev's and Wilyn's? How big is it? Is it a 9 footer?

Don Ricardo

[aza]

Thankyou for the update Don.
A shame the above manual doesn't clarify what the C & W represents.
Mine appears very similar to both Trev's and Willyn's although like Trev's both
the front and rear windows are fixed on mine where as it appears Willyn's can be opened ?

Attachment Deleted

[Don Ricardo]

Hi Aza,

That's an interesting pick up about the front and rear windows.  I was thinking maybe that was another difference between Aristavan and Aristocrat, but it's not that clear cut because Trev's Aristocrat and your Aristavan have fixed windows, and Willyn's Aristavan has the opening windows.  Of course we don't know exactly when each of the vans was built, so we may be looking at some changes to the vans made over a period of time.

According to Winser, in 1967 the 9ft Aristavan model was called the 'Sprite' - so there you go, you very likely have an Aristavan Sprite!

By the way in the excerpt from Winser, the two captions for the two interior photos both refer to 'Aristavan', but looking at the pics and reading the descriptions (including the reference to 29 ft models in relation to the top photo), I am willing to bet that the top photo is of an Aristocrat, while the bottom photo is of an Aristavan.

Don Ricardo

[aza]

Thanks again Don for the info.
I had wondered if there was a model name for the 9FT version and you have answered that for me. Sprite !
Also you may have helped me with making a decision as to what colours I should paint it. Sprite green perhaps.

As for the interior photos, I think you may be correct.

AZA

[firefighter]

Hi ASA

The Ad I have for Caravanland 1967 lists 3 models

Aristocrat

Aristovan

Apache

This is the way they are listed .....  rough guess the small model would be the Apace

Another rough guess maybe your van is the Apace model ...I have been wrong before

Full range of Shells, Kits and accessories

New.... used ....and hire vans

They call them selves ........W A  Caravan Specialists......Osborne Park

Caravanland are still in Perth.......claim they started Winter 1990 

www.caravanland.com.au/

When I was in WA with forum member Ralfndi a couple years ago I think we called in to Caravanland as I had broken the hand brake leaver on the Roadhaven the work shop made me a new one while we waited

Out the back  of this place were 4/5 vintage/classic vans and I think the boss attended part of the  W A rally we were on and he is a mate of Mark T......  forum owner.....  BUT I could be wrong again  

cheers

f/f

[Don Ricardo]

G'day Firefighter,

Great to hear from you after your winter sojourn.

That's interesting information you've posted about the C&W vans. It all adds to the picture we're beginning to piece together.

According to Winser the 9 ft Aristavan is definitely called the Sprite, and the larger Aristavans all go by the model name of 'Regal'. The two smaller Aristrocrats are called the 'Prince' and 'Classic', and all the larger ones go by the name of 'Deluxe'. No mention of an Apache... . Are you able to tell us any more from the advert you have? Any pics or specs?

Interesting also about the current Caravanland business dating itself back only to 1990. I presume it must be a new company, not connected to the 1960's Caravan Industries Pty Ltd, but who knows? It would be unusual for a company to claim less years of operation than it was entitled to - mostly it goes the other way around, and people fudge a few more years one way or another! But maybe this is the exception.

Don Ricardo

[firefighter]

Ad from

Plans for caravans

Keith Winser

Edition 12 ...1967

Australian Motor Manual

cheers f/f

[DC3Td]

Is it not possible to ask a long standing rep from jayco if they know the origins of C&W being as they now own Caravland Osborne Pk?

[Don Ricardo]

G'day Firefighter, DC3Td and Aza,

Thanks for posting that advert for Caravanland/Caravan Industries, Firefighter.

It's interesting to see the mention of Apache. For some reason the name 'Apache Camper' rang a bell for me, so I did a bit of googling and discovered that the Apache Camper was an American-built canvas sided camper trailer along the lines of our Jayco camper trailers. There is a brochure for the 1967 Apache models here.

I wonder if Caravanland was maybe acting as an Australian/West Australian agent for Apache in 1967? It would add another product to their sales line-up.

Funny thing is, there is a crowd called Eagle Trailers & Campers based in South Australia and Western Australia selling a modern style Apache camper trailer now. So not only is there a modern day Caravanland, but there is also a modern day Apache on the market!

I don't know where the modern Apache is built. Eagle Trailers & Campers emphasise that they are an Australian owned company, which makes me think that their products are very probably built overseas. Yes, I know, call me cynical. So it's possible that the modern Apache is descended from the 1960's Apaches. Maybe...

Picking up on DC3Td's comment, perhaps it would be worth Aza's time to visit the modern day Caravanland and check out whether there is any link to the 1960's Caravanland. If so, the chap Firefighter mentioned, who owns the outfit, might be able to enlighten us about Aristocrat/Aristavan, and perhaps also Apache?  Firefighter might even be able to give you the chap's name.  What do you reckon Aza?  Worth a shot if you don't live too far away.

Don Ricardo

---

Postscript:

I just did a search and found the following post from Nuddle in 2013. Looks like we may be on the right track regarding Apache!

Jan 19, 2013 12:25:36 GMT 10 nuddle said:

Hi all

A relative has a Late 60's maybe early 70's "Apache" as an unfinished project that is available to someone interested in it. Pick up for free!

It is lift top steel tub with plastic fittings, never seen another in AUST! Some spares and original wheels may be available

This 'Apache' Van was imported under permit to Australia from USA, toured around and abandoned. After a chequed history left behind a shed.

Reasonably sound but requires much work. will probably be scrapped if no takers.

If curious ring Bill on 02 4739 8726

[aza]

Yes, thanks for posting the add for us firefighter.
I had wondered if the stripe on the side of my van was original and it seems it may well be.
Don and Gordon, I will take the time to follow this up at Osborne Park as soon as I get a chance.
Hopefully I will be able to add to story. Its great to see some more info coming out.

I wondered, what happened to the other 2 9FT vans mentioned in this post ??