New Project Van - Not clear on ID. All help appreciated

[syndo79]

Hi everyone,
2 threads in one night, I will certainly need sleep soon after working all this out.
Anyway, our latest project is for sale under the Ebay - Gumtree Section but our latest project is now up on stands and we are ready to begin restoration.
Very evident on the front top of the van is a shadow/remains of a Viscount Royal Sticker. Now as lovely as that logo is, certain things dont seem to run true.
And given the logo was slightly crooked on the tin, along with our research so far indicating Viscount Royals didnt start until 1970 or 1971, there is now a question - what really is it?
It is registered as a 1958 Viscount and as seen in photos, has aluminium/tin along top, front and back, and bondwood on the sides.  I did see a welded chassis number but the front letter and perhaps a number is hidden under the hitch assembly.
We will replace with a new hitch and renew the brakes etc so will look as soon as old hitch comes off, hopefully it comes off without a grinder.

We love this old van, it has so much character! The upholstery is in great condition and the interior in general is in good nic.

All your expert help is appreciated in identifying this van and we thank you in advance for sharing your knowledge.

Kind Regards,
Damon and Louise


Untitled by Louise Smith, on Flickr


Untitled by Louise Smith, on Flickr


Untitled by Louise Smith, on Flickr


Untitled by Louise Smith, on Flickr


Untitled by Louise Smith, on Flickr


Untitled by Louise Smith, on Flickr


Untitled by Louise Smith, on Flickr


Untitled by Louise Smith, on Flickr


Untitled by Louise Smith, on Flickr

Tail Lights on it when we got it and seen on many older vans of an Austin Cambridge A55 - www.simoncars.co.uk/austin/a55.html;
Produced with these tail lights in 1957, 1958 as on Wikipedia   Not to say they could not have been added years later.


Untitled by Louise Smith, on Flickr

and another very similar van including front profile up to window the same, same ceiling, same cupboard doors, same laminate, etc - found on FaceBook yesterday (still looking for link).

Untitled by Louise Smith, on Flickr


Untitled by Louise Smith, on Flickr


Untitled by Louise Smith, on Flickr


Untitled by Louise Smith, on Flickr
 

[shesgotthelook]

Welcome & well done on figuring out photos. Not a Viscount. More likely a Coronet.

[Roehm3108]

Welcome too syndo79. Sorry, but I won't agree with SGTL this time, I reckon the Viscount badge is correct

[syndo79]

Thank you both for your comments,

I have linked some more photos and ideas.
The tail lights off an old Austin Cambridge 57/58 A55 which are not the same as if they were on the car.  The ones off a car have large cut outs at back for clip in bulbs to go in.  This has a traditional caravan light flat back which is original in casting and the holes for cables to come through. No internals at moment.

Also a 'Franklin' on FaceBook I have added photos of as there are heaps of similarities and frankly (no pun at all) the most complete set of matching features.  

I have noticed the rear window is different, or not original I think as profile of aluminium frame is different.

Thanks everyone for looking

Kind Regards,
Damon and Louise

[twocutekelpies]

I don't know about her ID, but the Viscount decal is from 1974 and I reckon added at a later date as she's much earlier than that. Any hints from the drawbar? Chassis number?

[Don Ricardo]

Hi Syndo79,

I think you're on the right track with the identification of this van. A few points to add to the discussion:

• Viscount did call one of their models the 'Royal' as far back as 1958, and possibly earlier. SGTL's Viscount from about that date is a Viscount Royal...BUT...
• The 1958 and 1959 Viscounts didn't look anything at all like your van. If you have a look through the Viscount thread in the 'Down History Lane' (DHL) section of the forum, you'll see adverts for both the '58 and '59 model Viscounts, as well as some photos of SGTL's Viscount Royal.
• The wrap round, triple front windows similar to your your van seem to have been first introduced to the industry by Viscount in 1960, but Viscount vans from 1959 were clad exclusively with aluminium.

So basically these points all count your van out as being a 1958 Viscount, or being a Viscount at all. Thinking further...

• The front windows of your van indicate that it is no earlier than 1960, and there are a number of manufacturers who adopted that style in the very early 60's and who also had aluminium cladding on the front, rear and roof, but also continued to use bondwood on the sides for a number of years.
• The ceiling material in your van with the pattern was used by several manufacturers based in the Ballarat area, including Franklin.
• Your van has the little galley shelf which as far as I can tell from the photo seems to have only the one central support. Is that correct? If so, as far as we know that feature was used exclusively by Franklin.

So the indications are that your van was built by one of the Ballarat-based manufacturers, of which there were at least five - it was a caravan hotspot in the the 60's.  However, the most significant feature of your van - odd as it may seem - is the galley shelf, and that clearly points to the van being built by Franklin (which is what you've suggested in relation to the Ebuy van photos). The only problem is that I can't find any photos of a Franklin which completely matches the front of your van (or the Ebuy van). However, I have noticed that we appear to be missing any photos of 1962 Franklins in our DHL threads, so I am wondering if your van may be a 1962 model. I am hoping the serial number of your van, when you get it, may tell us one way or the other. And maybe forum member Franklin1 may be able to tell us more when he sees the photos of your van.

One other thing to bear in mind is that in the early 60's some Franklins were sold by other retailers under different brandnames, including Panorama, Wanda and Pathmaster, so there may have been slight differences in the finishing and/or fittings of those vans, and may be part of your van's ID/history too.

Hope all that helps a bit.

By the way have I got it right? You used to post under the name Sneezles2, or is Sneezles2 some other members of your family, and you're now posting yourselves under Syndo79? Just trying to get my brain organised...

Don Ricardo

[syndo79]

Hi Don,
You continue to be a wonderful source of brain power, reasoning and or knowledge thank you.
Sorry for the confusion.  I had outlined the 2 different ID's on the sales thread but not here sorry.

Sneezles2 is our first ID that Louise's mum hijacked (thanks mum, hehe) and because we are pushing ahead with making caravan restoration our living which it officially is now, we needed our own ID to avoid confusion.  Thus we created Syndo79.
My name is Damon, and Louise is my dear and patient wife for nearly 14 years and Louise has been restoring/selling vans with her family for many years, before i came on the scene.  They have shared their knowledge and now I love working on them and Louise and I form a a great team.  Carmen is Louise's mum and her and her husband restore old caravans also.  While before we used to buy cheap 1970s vans we found around, clean them up, fix major damage etc and so called 'flip' them for some profit, their asking price these days has skyrocketed as everyone thinks that an 1970s van they have or later is an absolute treasure and must therefore be worth a fortune.  Although many we have sold truely are classics, we have moved to older 50s and 60s vans, they take longer, need more work but we feel are more rewarding and unique and have so far been able to modestly profit off the ones we have sold.

I can confirm that yes the kitchen shelf has a single central support.  But then again so does our Vacation we are currently selling. 

The FaceBook 'Franklin' with the same front though not confirmed by the seller so far seems to be the closest match and that would strengthen it having at least Franklin heritage or one of the rebadged versions.

We checked the chassis number again, it is on top of the A-Frame, is welded quite sloppily, and a bit crooked (have you picked up on my OCD yet?) but reads '533C' or possibly but in my eyes not it could be a zero at the end.

We have found also lino patches in the base of the cupboards now we have cleaned everything and i include the photo below.  From some research in the Googleverse, it seems the pattern along with color pallete are late 50s early 60s.
Again that seems to match Franklin era or the rebadged ones.


Untitled by Louise Smith, on Flickr

Thanks again for all that research, we will continue to check up on those possibilities. 

Kind Regards

Damon and Louise

[Don Ricardo]

Hi Syndo79,

I did see your previous post about the connection between you and Sneezles2, but was just a little bit confused. Now I get it.

The serial number of 553C you have quoted is definitely a pre-1965 Franklin serial number, and the 'C' as best as we understand it tells us the year - 1962.

After making the comment about not being able to find photos of a Franklin with a front that matches yours and there being no photos of 1962 Franklins, I remembered that there might be some photos in the 1962 Winser caravan manual, and sure enough there were. I've posted them here just now, and you'll see a couple of examples of vans with a front treatment fairly similar to yours. You'll also note one van there which has the front middle window the same as yours and the Ebuy example - ie made with all 90 degree angles and no curves, which is a bit unusual.

I love that lino, by the way. Just fantastic.

Don Ricardo

[syndo79]

Thanks again.
Im leaning from those photos toward the ‘F’ Special, shown in twin axle 16ft in top page shown bottom left image, or the Franklin De Luxe Lightweight.  Something from each is not quite right.  The F Special seems to have more of a square corner window, but may just be how I’m seeing the old photo, along with that the overall shape is a little off with this one showing more of an even front and back curve.  The De Luxe has more of a lower sloped rear end which is very similar to ours.  However the De Luxe states it’s from a 9ft to 12ft.  I believe ours is more 14ft.  

Did the 1962 De Luxe come out in a 14ft or longer but not of course light weight and without the top bump sticking out as shown in the nice long Deluxe ones photographed in that mag?

Ours seems to have a flat rise above the front windows also before a quick curve back.  Both the F Special and the De Luxe seem to have the gradual curve starting straight after the front windows.

Cheers

Kind Regards

Damon and Louise

[Don Ricardo]

Hi Syndo79,

I agree with you with regard to your comparison of your van with the vans in the 1962 Winser caravan manual, with the front and rear on your van looking more 'angular' and less curved. However, the caravan manual photos do show that Franklin produced vans with the front windows inset into the front wall like your van (and a bit like the early 60's Viscounts). And that's one particular thing I wanted to confirm.

However, with your van's 'Franklin shelf' (which apparently was also picked up by Vacation, one of the other Ballarat manufacturers !!), the 'dimpled' ceiling, and the Franklin serial number, I'm certain we've identified the origins of your van.

Don Ricardo

[syndo79]

Excellent so we are happy to say it’s a 1962 Franklin? Possibly the De Luxe?

Yep those inset windows seem to be genuine Franklin.   Interestingly other Franklins has the windows overhanging the bottom of the front, and still others curved up from the bottom to the window with a curved overhang.   We were marvelling today actually with Louise’s dad just how much you guys know and again Louise and I thank you for your help in sorting all this out.


We will post a thread maybe (if we find correct section) of this Franklins progress.


Kind Regards,

Damon and Louise

[Franklin1]

There is certainly enough evidence in this van to say it was built by Franklin. The chassis number of 553C fits in with the numbering system Franklin used in the early '60s. The double-hopper rear window must have been a later update (to improve ventilation?) - a single fixed pane of glass being the standard at the time.

Whether the van was actually badged as a Franklin out of the factory is something I'm still not convinced about. The beige-coloured stripes design on the side is not typical of the Franklin vans of that era. Franklin vans from the early '60s all seem to have had a single stripe around the van, just below the windows.

We know that Franklin built vans for other nameplates, but none of the examples I have of the Panorama, Roma, etc brands, have your stripe design on the sides.

Perhaps the double-hopper rear window was pinched from a later Viscount donor van, and somebody whacked a later Viscount sticker on the van to go with it?? The Viscount sticker on your van started to appear in Viscount advertising around Sept 1973.

cheers,
Al.

[syndo79]

Thanks for that.

We appreciate everyone’s help.

Kind Regards

Damon and Louise

[deanc]

Hi Damon and Louise,

I have a van thats badged Sandhurst that has a lot of similarities to yours. Mine has the front curved windows, aluminium on the front, rear and roof. Mine was originally purchased new in Bendigo.
Heres the link to my post, I hope it helps.

vintagecaravans.proboards.com/thread/17186/sandhurst-caravans

Cheers
Dean

[shesgotthelook]

Well I can tell you that the 2nd van you posted pics of is definitely a Franklin because I now own it!