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Post by willies on Mar 3, 2016 21:23:01 GMT 10
Hi Everyone, We have just purchased a van that will compliment our Arnold (10' Homemade). Arnold is only 6' wide and I can't sleep straight in bed. This "new" van was mentioned in another thread recently by SGTL. This is all that we know at this time. It was a shed find by the guy that I purchased it from and he purchased it from the son (79 year old) of the original owner. I will be in contact with him in due course. Was found in Goolwa. I have had a look over it and as yet we haven't found any true indication of the maker. I will look a lot harder when we finally get it home to Adelaide soon. ( Driveway space is limited at the moment but working on it) Attached are photos that may be of assistance. Length 14'6" Width 6'6" running on 16" wheels. The draw bar has been modified at some stage to give a bit more length. There is an ETSA tag for 1963 re electrics. Electrics currently have a socket with a brass screw cap under the van with what looks like a battery setup under the rear dining seat. We have the most beautiful blue acrylic sink but there is no water supply either mains or tank.  
The timber lip above the windows is very similar to Furness before they went sliding. Anyone know what the bracket on the side would have been used for? No TV inside! 
Will need to replace the rubbers on the 2 perspex side windows at the front 
The photo below also has the fold out track on the floor that is for the 2 panel privacy sliding door that creates the a cosy private retreat. Also has a folding panel on the lead panel to go over the sink top. 
Wardrobe has a small square cupboard within the door. Door drops down on chain stays and can then be used as a vanity with the aid of a tub. 
Ceiling is in fantastic condition with no leaks evident. Roof has canvas over the caneite and there is no sign of perishing.  
Paper brand on the underside of one of the cupboard shelves 
Rice coupling 
Modified and extended draw bar with provision for the spare to be mounted flat to the bar. May have been why it was modified as no one wants the dirty spare inside. 
The spare. Could do with some air but good condition and the others match.   
Within the power supply under the rear seat there is space for a battery and bonus spare wheel bearings  If there are any other photos needed to help identify this van just let me know. I have had a look under the draw bar and I haven't been able to find any sort of chassis number. Last registered in 1979 and the original SA rego plate was 40859. Haven't been to motor rego to see if they can shed some light as to when that plate would have been released. Any help would be greatly appreciated. |
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Post by kingswood308 on Mar 4, 2016 0:17:47 GMT 10
The 40000 number plates were first issued in January 1925.
Can you stickup a photo of the number plate ?? Is it a painted black and white plate of alloy numbers riveted to a black plate ??
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Post by shesgotthelook on Mar 4, 2016 7:11:33 GMT 10
Oh wow! look at the inside! I note the upholstery is very similar to Brentens Furness so that may help with dating.
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Post by brenten on Mar 4, 2016 7:26:21 GMT 10
my furness has a rice coupling almost the same that might also help dating ...brenten
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Post by willies on Mar 4, 2016 7:42:10 GMT 10
The 40000 number plates were first issued in January 1925. Can you stickup a photo of the number plate ?? Is it a painted black and white plate of alloy numbers riveted to a black plate ?? Number plate is painted (photo attached) but not very legible as the back end of the van has some rust on the plate, towel rail,metal window frame that is screwed over the timber window frames and then there is also a metal plate that goes full width under the towel rail and this also has wiring within a channel for the tail lights. Also have been advised that we have a Rice coupling that we are hoping to keep intact.  What other vans have this screw style of rear stabilisers?   |
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Post by brenten on Mar 4, 2016 8:06:23 GMT 10
the rice couplings work realy good i have had 2 vans with them i would leave it on and use it but if you ever change it i would like to buy the handle (im missing one ) ...brenten
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Post by shesgotthelook on Mar 4, 2016 10:10:11 GMT 10
Our 1964 GlobeTrotter had stabilizers like that.
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Post by seeshell on Mar 4, 2016 10:35:23 GMT 10
Anyone know what the bracket on the side would have been used for? No TV inside! Hello Willies, Congratulations on finding such a lovely, interesting van in great nick. What fabulous lino, and that blue sink - marvelous. Based on our homemade van from 1951, the fitting on the outside could have been for a radio antenna. Ours had one very much like that (the builder was a radio technician initially), and when the pipe with the antenna on it was fitted to the bracket, the cord when back through the window to attach to the radio unit. Important when you were out and about to keep in touch with the world, and keep up with your 'stories'.  Cheers Seeshell |
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Post by willies on Mar 4, 2016 14:14:01 GMT 10
Thanks Firefighter, So we could date it somewhere between 1929 & 1957. But the late 1930's to 1940's could be a possibility then?
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Post by seeshell on Mar 4, 2016 19:53:00 GMT 10
Hi Willies
If you based the age of the van on the pattern of the lino, it could have been made any time from the 1930s. However, given the colourway, it would likely be from the late 1940s to early 1950s. When the colour of the lino is combined with the colour of the sink, it is distinctly mid-50s. The 1940s colour palette was more red, green and cream. When the 50s arrived, there was a shift to blues (which were hard to produce properly earlier). Also, going back to my own reference books, you could get those plastic sinks from Henty in the 1950s. In fact, there is material on Trove, showing a less whiz bang version of your sink (white though) in a Propert 'Trailaway' touring caravan, built 1956.
The shape of the van is more angular and sloped, which seems to be a feature of later vans. The 1950s design asthetic was characterised by asymmetry (think the the wood over the window frames). When you combine that with what Firefighter knows about the licence plates - I think you could safely land on the mid-fifties as a birthdate.
I don't know much about makers - Don and others can help with that - but it looks a very unusual shape, and the windows are unique. Perhaps a home build?
Cheers
Seeshell
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Post by kingswood308 on Mar 4, 2016 22:23:05 GMT 10
Would you mind giving me the actual numbers off your number plate please mate, and I will find the last time that plate was issued for you |
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Post by willies on Mar 4, 2016 22:41:19 GMT 10
Plate reads 40859. Registered as caravan and expired on 9/7/79. As per the rego disc still attached to the side near the door.
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Post by Mustang on Mar 5, 2016 5:23:35 GMT 10
Wow what a find,& the knowledge that follows from this forum, will follow with enthusiasm.
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Post by Don Ricardo on Mar 5, 2016 16:51:10 GMT 10
G'day Willies, What an interesting vintage van puzzle someone has created for us with your van! So many cues, so many clues, so many things racing around my head...and no answers...  I can see bits of the van that look like the 30's, other bits that look like the 40's, and yet other bits that look like the early 50's - which is what everyone else has said. The only think I can say for sure is that the design tells us that it's a South Australian built van, but then we already know that, don't we? In some ways I reckon that rego plate is going to be the best clue we've got, but the format is different to the numerical series Firefighter gave us (ie 5 digits without a break compared to xxx-xxx). South Australia actually did use 5-digit plates for motor vehicles from 1918 to around 1929, and plates with numbers between 40-000 and 50-000 were issued between January to October 1925, but I'm 100% sure your van doesn't date back to 1925! In addition, the plate on your van has 'SA' on it, and that wasn't introduced until January 1931, so your plate dates later than 1931. What I suspect that all tells us - especially the fact that it is 5 digits without a break - is that your rego number is for a trailer or caravan, not just a general motor vehicle. I'm not sure when South Australia introduced trailer registration. Anyone know? And a couple of other questions that may get us a bit further: Anyone/everyone: - When did they starting fitting fixed windows retained in place with rubber seals like the ones on the front of this van? They were doing that in the 50's, but did they do it earlier on?
Willies: - There doesn't appear to be a water tank or any means for putting the water into the sink? Is that correct or have I missed something?
- The sink looks very shiny, and almost unused. Does it appear as if it could be a later addition? What type of screws are used for it - slot head or phillips?
- What is the surface of the table? Laminex or something else? And what is the design in the middle? Is that part of the surface or a sticker or something?
- What is the table leg made of, and what shape is it? (Maybe a picture if you can manage it.)
Don Ricardo |
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Post by willies on Mar 5, 2016 17:27:22 GMT 10
Thanks Don, We will be collecting the van after next week end so everything is currently by memory and pictures. I will be calling in to the van for my final payment mid next week. The guy I have purchased it from has way more shed room than I have. Answers to your questions There is no provision for water. There is no tank on board and there is no connection for mains. As the sink has a top that is hinged behind it the sink does not see as much daylight when not being used. I suspect it is that new and shiny because without the water supply it didn't get the regular use. Hard to put in a tap when the splashback is also the top to cover the sink when not in use. I will include a couple of photos with the lid down and also the cupboard underneath the sink. I am pretty certain that the screws for the sink were slot heads.   With the table we have a painted surface and the design in the middle is a flower motif of sorts that appears to be a decal under a clear gloss. The van has no laminex surfaces on either of the 2 tables or benchtops. The tables are slightly different in design and the supports are also different. Table legs are metal. Table at the front. This is smaller than the rear table and when it is down as a bed there is also a canvas stretcher that can be installed above it for a bunk bed suitable for a child I would imagine.  Table at the rear which drops down to be the double bed  As you can see the metal legs for both are different and I believe that the table at the front has been installed or modified at some stage as there is also a gap in the Lino. It is possible that there was a bunk bed set up in the front but I won't be able to confirm this until I have a chat with the son of the original owner. He is 79 now so I will be in contact soon. Garry |
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Post by Don Ricardo on Mar 5, 2016 17:52:35 GMT 10
Hi again Willies,
Thanks for the extra photos. That's great. I'll have a think about what it tells us, and others may have some thoughts. I think you're right about the bunk bed arrangement over the front table. The fittings looks exactly like the ones we've seen used on other vans for that purpose.
You're seeing the son of the original owner? How fantastic is that! Hopefully he will be able to provide you with some valuable information about the history of the van, and should be able to at least give you some idea of when his parents acquired it and whether it was new or second hand at that stage.
It will be really interesting to hear what you find out.
By the way, I just added some additional information about the rego plate to my last post via an edit.
Don Ricardo
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Post by willies on Mar 6, 2016 9:21:38 GMT 10
Some more photos. The step which pivots up and is then held in place with the bolt and nut from the underside of the van  The drop down cupboard contained within the wardrobe door  For the Ice Box fanatics   Can't wait to get this beast home and start the rejuvenation. The objective is to keep it as original as possible and hope to restore what isn't quite right. I am not going for the restoration that looks like it came off the production line yesterday as it is a van of 60 years plus? and should show signs of previous love and adventures. Start with the chassis, axle, brakes and wheels/tyres. That way we can start to use the van whilst carrying on the list of fixes as we go. The interior should only require a thorough clean and some minor fixes and repaint. Exterior is in fairly good nick with only one small area of damage to the bondwood on RHR (photo earlier in thread). Back end does need some work as the metal parts have been affected by the sea air. Replace the rubbers on the fixed windows at the front. Luckily for me the doped canvas roof is in fantastic condition which probably has been the saviour of the leak free interior. We know that it is a more than 95% chance that it was made in SA, but if anyone can spot anything from the photos that might point to a maker that would be fantastic. Garry |
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Post by akeepsake on Mar 6, 2016 15:14:08 GMT 10
Hi Garry what a treasure you have there ! You're going to love getting stuck into that !
Reading through the comments it does have some early and later features . There are a lot of similarities to my 49 Jennison, actually too many to mention
DonR I would say the front round windows are a later mod and done well
I love the Lino and have seen it in vans up to the early 50s
As stated by others 1940-1950 is on the money but would put my money on the latter half of that decade round 47-49
Regardless of this its a great and interesting van and as you start your archeological dig under paint, beneath Lino and behind drawers I'm sure you will have as much fun as we all have and find dates bondwood brand stamps etc etc. I even found an old wallet with a wad of redundant notes in it!
Keep the pics coming !
Cheers Andrew
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Post by Don Ricardo on Mar 7, 2016 12:58:57 GMT 10
We know that it is a more than 95% chance that it was made in SA, but if anyone can spot anything from the photos that might point to a maker that would be fantastic. Garry Hi Willies, I think you can say you're 100% sure that your new van was built in South Australia. Apart from the registration (which could obviously have been changed over time), the tudor ceiling, the canvas and caneite roof, and the design of the roofline make it a certainty as far as I am concerned. Some manufacturers in other states used one or other of those features, but I can't think of any manufacturer outside South Australia who combined all three. It's fair to say that any van with those three features purchased in one of the other states was built in South Australia and then sold under a different brandname elsewhere. I noticed that in one of your Photobucket pictures there is an ETSA sticker with a date. I don't know when ETSA certification became a requirement (it could be well after the van was built?), but it will be interesting to hear what the date on the sticker is. At least we'll know that the van was built before that date! (Sorry, I see that in a previous post you've said the ETSA sticker is dated 1963. Well at least we know it was built in 1963 or earlier!  ) I was originally thinking that the van might have been built sometime up to the mid-50's, but I'm now on the same page as Akeepsake - between 1940 and 1950, and given that not much caravan building occurred between 1940 and 1945 due to lack of materials, you might even guess between 1945 and 1950. There's still the possibility that your van is from the 30's. As you've observed the mouldings on top of the side windows are similar to those on pre-war Furnesses and a van on the DHL SA Paramount thread, and the triangular moulding over the front opening window is similar to the side mouldings on pre-war SA Paramounts. However, the overall look of the van just doesn't feel right for the 30's to me. Part of the problem is knowing what was on the van originally and what was added later, eg the two front rubber sealed windows and metal edging on the corner joins, and I reckon the sink, curtains, seat cushions and lino have been part of a later update. But hopefully at some stage you'll find something that gives you a definitive date. I wonder if there is a date stamp on the galvanised tin in the ice box, for example? Don Ricardo |
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Post by willies on Mar 7, 2016 15:03:50 GMT 10
After having a read of the Paramount SA thread I can see a similarity between my unidentified vans wheel arch and the Paramounts. Could this be a van from the period after the WW2 where it has been hard to identify any vans from Paramount SA?
Food for thought there.
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Post by Don Ricardo on Mar 7, 2016 15:30:04 GMT 10
G'day Willies,
Yes, that is an interesting thought. Your wheel arch is similar to that on the pre-war Furnesses as well.
I have considered whether your van is a Paramount or Furness that has had its front (and roof) re-modelled at some point, but I don't think there are enough similarities between yours and them in relation to the shape of the backend (yours seems longer) and the internal furniture and fittings. And besides re-modelling the van would involve so much work you'd have to wonder why it would be done. (Mind you one of our members recently re-modelled an early 60's Olympic van and completely changed the shape and look of it, so it is possible!)
The search continues!
Don Ricardo
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Post by akeepsake on Mar 7, 2016 22:54:10 GMT 10
I agree with you Don R about the sink That it looks out of place and is most likely a late 50s addition .it looks as though the sink lid has had a skirt added to it to accommodate the height and would have originally been the same height as the cook top lid ? Check out Jennisons 53 pathfinder which had this style of benchtop arrangement with a steel sink mounted on the underside of the benchtop .Speculating here but I wonder if the sink ,the cushions and even the Lino were added at the same time as a colour match upgrade I could be wrong about the Lino but it doesn't quite seem to fit in with the rest of the clean palette ?.? I would be looking under the Lino to see if there are telltale signs of an upgrade . Just my thoughts
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Post by akeepsake on Mar 7, 2016 23:14:29 GMT 10
Having another look at the pics the front and rear diner seat construction don't seen to match each other as far as consistency with design goes . The front seat boxes look more crude in their design conversely the rear ones look much more refined in construction . Also the front ones don't have quad running around the base Just an observation  ? |
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Post by kingswood308 on Mar 8, 2016 2:18:10 GMT 10
40859 SA plate was last issued to a trailer (Caravan) in August 1953.
To retain that number plate (If you are in SA) there is a considerable 4 figure cost for it, but the original owner can have it reregistered in there name. Being last registered in 1979, it will be what's called walk in rego.
As a matter of observation, it has a very distinctive Clipper'ish rear end, I've owned 3 very Clippers and they have Masonite exterior walls as well. Modern white plastic electric sockets but it also has Bakelite electrics. I have a 1930s van with the same sink, and again with no above the sink water tank or any taps.
Is the van in SA at the moment or has it gone to a home interstate Garry ??
Looking forward to watching its restoration mate.
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Post by willies on Mar 8, 2016 6:23:53 GMT 10
Thank you akeepsake for your insights. The tables ar different to each other and I speculate the front table was a later modification as the Lino doesn't quite fit correctly. It may have been a single bed or couch as we also have a canvas stretcher that fits above the table. Kingswood308 that info is helpful too. The van is currently in Strathaylbyn in the Adelaide hills and will be moving to Rosewater next to Port Adelaide. Will be moving the van after next weekend as this weekend we will be in Nuriootpa with our Arnold and other VVers.
I will also be able to make contact with the old owner very soon.
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