Sway Bars, Towing Aids, Load Levellers

[Deleted]

G'day All

Somewhere amongst all these posts someone suggested a "technical section" . The idea being if anyone new to the Vintage vanning scene had a question on "How to" or "where do i get it" then they could post it in this section.
Then ... hopefully all the worldly wise Vanites would jump in and share thier knowledge with the newcomer.

I am no expert when it comes to computers but I am sure it wouldn't take to much for someone to set up.
What do you reckon Mark?

Anyway I volunteer to be the first dummy.

I have towed 16 and 18 foot vans away on holidays before and they all move around a bit behind you . but i would like to make sure the old van doesn't get the speed wobbles up when it finally hits the road.
Heres my question.

When I bought my 9 '6'' ply van I towed it home with a 1986 Landcruiser. The tow ball sits about 5 or 6" above axle hieght of the van. It towed ok up to about 60Kph then started swaying a few inches either way. The van was empty at the time. Tyre pressures where checked at around 25psi each side.
Question:
Is the swaying due to the "nose up" attitude of the draw bar.
Question:
Most of the time the van will be towed with the EH Holden Wagon so I am hoping that the problem only exists when towing the van behind the 4X4 . However, It would be peace of mind if it could be towed with any vehicle without having to worry about the van fishtailing along behind me.

As anyone that has experienced this will tell you it is a "heart in the mouth experience" when you are travelling down the road in a straight line and you can see the door of your van in the left side mirror then the entire right side of the van in the right side mirror.

Q:Has anyone fitted anything to help prevent sway??
Q:Would shockies help prevent spring rebound???
Q: Was the swaying the vans way of protesting about
being towed by a T@y*t#
Q: should I just knock the lid off another stubby and
tell myself I am paranoid


Reddo - from The far side of the road, then this side, then that side, then ..........crash
.

[trev n carrots]

;D ;D lol...yeah just have another stubby..she'll be right , reddo
my guess is its the high draw bar causing the problems.
& yes ..i very nearly tipped an fj pv off a trailer once.the high was only just wide enough....by the time i slowed down & straightened the outfit, i was sitting in something not very nice
i use bars (some call them stabilisers,others call em load- levellers) on my bigger van..tows very well.the smaller one tows well with out any add-ons
cheers trev

[belinda]

There was discussion earlier about sway bars - look at the postings at "brakes? what brakes?"

I towed our van without load levellers - once. I was only going from from the auto electrician to the blue slip inspector's place, but it was a truly frightening and never-to-be-repeated experience. I thought the thing was going to hop off and go holidaying on its own.

We use the load levellers with both our tow cars (Renault Scenic and Austin 1800) and the van is perfectly behaved when they are in place. However, there did need to be some modification to the van coupling to make it fit onto the tow bar plate.

[52chevygirl]

Stubby sounds good!! We towed the Sunliner to Yamba (normally about 3 1/2 hour trip) in 5 hours - with plenty of stops to check - you know the maiden voyage paranoia..... towed great,,, decided to try the swaybars on the trip home and towed better... the Sunliner only weighs about 700kg maybe 800 with what I pack...LOL.
We sat on 100km if not a bit more.. shhh. We only layed on the brakes once for roadworks in the middle of nowhere and it didn't even wobble.
It would also depend on the load inside wouldn't it?
Darren (hubby) distributed everything over the axle. etc.
I vote a big +++ for the swaybars..
Deb

[surferboy]

gday reddo
i had electric brakes fitted to my van. theyre a bit more expensive than mechanical brakes but they have an override so i can put the brakes on the van manually if it starts swaying to pull it back in line.
i'm just hoping i bought something i never need to use.

[Deleted]

yeah .......i used to tow a 16' Millard that tended to sway a bit ...... I solved the problem by placing 3 blocks (90 cans) of Carlton Midstrength up the front of the van ..... it worked well on the way there (no sway), but for some reason the caravan still had the sway on the way home ;D

[earlee]

Yeh, I always found that if there was too much weight behind the axle of the caravan, relative to forward of the axle. then I would have trouble with swaying. In fact the first time it happened I was lucky to have been on a 3 lane road because otherwise I might not have been here to tell you this story - what a ####ing drama it could have been!!!
Now I always make sure that the load is correctly balanced!!

good luck
earlee

[Deleted]

Thanks everyone for the replies.


As I mentioned before the tow ball on the Toyota is about 4 or 5" higher than the van axle . This would have transferred a lot of the vans weight ( centre of gravity) back behind the axle causing it to sway.

Given that these little vans wouldn't weigh much more than a loaded box trailer. My guess is the secret to keeping them in a straight line is to do as Mark has mentioned and store the weight forward of the axle or at least try for 60% of the weight forward of the axle.

Electric overide brakes would be real piece of mind but I doubt if I will ever get to fit such a luxury. its laughable now to think that I sold a complete towing set up + two electric disc brakes with early holden stubs for $50 about 2 year ago at a swap meet. shit happens!!

i mentioned in the first post about shockies. They fit shockies to cars to stop the springs rebounding ( or at least slow the effect )after hitting bumps etc in the road.
Why wouldn't this same principle apply to those skinny little leaves under the van. As the sway starts up it transfers the weight of the van from one side to the other. The spring underload reacts and throws the weight back to the other side. Each time this happens the opposing spring gets the shits and throws the weight back with even more force. ( A bit like the old "push me - shove you" blues that use to break out in the school playground down behind the dunnies, ending up in a full on brawl).

Sooooo........ Do you think that some of this effect could be countered by fitting shockies. Just use a good pair of double acting gas shocks or similar. i am not all that impressed with air shockies. they are more usefull as load levelling. I had a set of air shocks on an EK Van at one stage. Young and silly I insisted on running massive wheels under the back. i fitted air shocks and ran plenty of pressure in them to stop the tyres rubbing on the wheel archs . All I achieved was two holes in the van floor where the shocks had punched up and split the top shocky mounts. Obviuosly not the shockys fault just the young dickhead puttin' too much air in them trying to raise the van 6".... Doh, Doh, Doh!!! It took years to convince me that a 6 or 7 inch wheel and tyre on an early holden would outhandle a 8 or 10". ( Anyone that doesn't admit to doing something similar when they had pimples is only kidding themselves).

Obviuosly sway is a big issue in bigger vans and the manufacturer supplies the van with all the right gear.
If I was to fit the "Two bars per side set up" how far back do I fit the "J" hooks on such a short draw bar . Can someone post a Pix of there set up along with the distances back from the ball for the hooks etc.

Belinda _ What van coupling mods did you make?? My guess is you had to put some sort of spacer between the draw bar and the coupling so that the draw bar didnt hit the bar plate that fits between the tow ball and the tow bar (goose neck)

Mark _ it appears you solved the problem of sway in the van on the way to the camp and transferred the problem of "Sway" to yourself for the run home. Hope someone else drove. 3 Cartons is a fair drink for an overnight stay......, But it does got hot here in OZ. ;D ;D ;D

Trev - Betcha wish ya still had that FJ Van. I had one when I was 16. flogged it around up the scrub and then shoved it over an embankment No rust in it anywhere, Windowless and only a few minor dings. Easily 5 to 10 grands worth today.
Everytime i think of it and what i done i feel like putting a gun to my head. I have even been back to see what was left........ Nothing.

Reddo From " The far side"

[wil]

;D
Reddo you are one funny guy you have a unique way of putting things so they are easy to understand
most trailers and vans being produced today have the wheels set back to allow a natural weight distribution
over the towbar remembering that if the car has to much weight in the boot steerage can be effected so balancing the load regardless off which system you use is of prime importance know your cars capabilities and also the vans capabilities if you change your van or your car dont expect the ride to be the same always do a dummy run and stick to the speed limits there are so many factors in a country like australia drive to the conditions use any of the available systems (if you can afford it some are probably more than you paid for the van
however if you are not a confident person towing dont take risks buy the appropriate equipment because you are dead a long time
in short it is all to do with the condition of both car and van and weight placement suspension and Tyres

Jazzhow the stuff I use is a product manufactured by selleys called heavy duty exterior Spakfilla in a blue tub it has inbuilt flexibility for small patches it is fine
if you are doing a seam (where two pieces of ply meet I always run some fibre glass tape down the full length of it this may seem extreme but I have been doing it for a long time and I have never had a problem if you look at the pictures of my new ?old van you will see the sheets are butted with the seams running up the van vertical generally you run the seams horizontal and offset the sheets with the tape system it doesnt matter all I do is use my angle grinder to gouge out a small hollow so when you put the tape in the filler isnt proud of the flat surfaces either side Bog is the accepted way however because vans flex a lot use polyeurethane wallboard cement if you are replacing any sheets and you will not have a problem

I heard that remark Trev just because I have gone backward doesnt mean I dont love my teardrop I just felt sorry for you conventional vanners and I thought I might infiltrate your ranks by subtifuge I know that when lyn and I are not around that the inuendos and Idle chatter flys so I thought we would introduce Ourselves by stealth however now you have noticed
I will give you the real reason if you are sound asleep in the middle of the night and your wife has to do a commando roll to get out of the teardrop elbows you in the head compress fractures your sternum and pokes her finger in your eye to go to the toilet and thats only going theres more she has to get back in
so dont tell anyone trev that is the only negative to owning a teardrop
however thats not a slur on the teardrop all you do is go away with the boys and leave her at home
Maybe thats why they built them in the first place

Regards
Will

[Deleted]

Belinda sent me these photos as a reference for anyone with queries concerning draw gear...........



The original set up on Belinda's van



New A frame and coupling .......but proved to be too short



The extended A frame



Coupling set up on a trailer down the road .....this has an even simpler solution where a flat plate is
attached to the top of the draw gear and the coupling is bolted on top of that.

[belinda]

Thanks Mark for posting those photos for me. One day I'll have to work out how to do it!

The main thing about fitting stabiliser bars is that there can't be any obstruction immediately under the coupling - it has to poke forward a bit.

You can see on our final setup that this was solved by cutting away a bit of metal underneath the coupling, and on the blue coupling this is what the plate is for.

[Deleted]

Hey belinda

Thanks for the pix.
It looks as though the problem was that the draw bar was hitting the Boomerang shaped plate that the sway bars hook into and stopping the coupling from dropping on to the ball.
i will fit the sway bars and set the coupling up as per the pix of the box trailer coupling.

Question: How good is the welds on the extension of your draw bar? The square section appears to be "butt welded" to the front of the existing draw bar. In my humble opinion you may be better off ( safer/stronger) reworking it so that the coupling is set up the same as you had it in pix 2 except this time mount it with a flat plate forward extension to allow the coupling to sit forward an inch or so. this would allow the coupling to clear the sway bar ( Boomerang shaped plate with four holes) bracket and drop easily onto the ball..

Second question: What Caravan Park did you stay in when you took the happy snaps of your van on its first outing. It looks to be right on the water and a great spot for a vanning holiday.

Cheers
Reddo from the same side.

[jazhow2]

They say a picture speaks a thousand words!
The pic of your extension plus the comments on haw it might be even safer/stronger have solved my
"short drawbar" problem.. ;D..I have been worried that the turning circle would be restricted by the van corner hitting the back of my bumper!
I guess thats what you meant by..:it proved too short"?
Cheers,
Marc.

[wwheelockvanrepair]

hello all.. you are right the van should sit nice and level when attached to the tow vehicle if it sits at an angle it will tend to sway more also the longer the draw bar the less the sway due to the caravan wheels being set back further you can also get a device that was called the curtis sway breaker it consits of a plate mounted under your tow ball that has a knukle on it to which a flat bar attaches you then have another bracket on the draw bar that has brake pads that the bar slides through and you can adjust the pressure to but i think hayman reese brought the design rights.. when it was called a curtis sway breaker im sure the company was at maffra vic any way best of luck warren Qld

[wwheelockvanrepair]

re photo of extended draw bar in the photo it looks like the box extension section has been welded along the top and down the sides down the sides is alright but you should never weld across the top or bottom it will nearly always crack across those welds due to the weaking of the steel by heat hope this will be able to help anyone looking at welding on their draw bars warren Qld

[belinda]

No, it isn't butt welded.

The extended section goes right through the A-frame and is bolted at the other end (you can just see the head of the bolt), as well as being welded where it goes through the end of the A-frame.

It looks a bit of an overkill, and that's mostly due to a misunderstanding between me and the guy who did the welding. I don't thing he really grasped the way that the D-shaped plate on the tow bar has to tuck under the coupling. A plate attached on top of the draw gear is a much easier option and is what the manufacturer recommends in the instructions.

The best thing for all of us is if someone can take a photo of a properly-done coupling with the van attached to the car. That way we can just print it off, take it to the welder and say "see, that's what I want".

The welder will then say "yeah yeah" and do what he likes anyway. Sigh.

I'll ask Rob about the possibility of cracking. He's a metallurgist and has a lot to do with welding standards.

The caravan park is Coledale Beach Camping Reserve, just north of Wollongong. There are only 24 sites and only 4 are powered, so you don't have to suffer everyone's loud sound systems. A powered site cost us $20 a night. Contact 4967 4302.

[Deleted]

Hello belinda

Firstly i am pleased to here that the draw bar is not butt welded. when I first seen it I had grave concerns as to having it set up like that. i just had trouble putting the words together in a way that didn't make out that you had done what i considered "Unsafe'
After reading your reply and looking at the photos i can see the extra bolt at the back of the existing draw bar where the coupling use to bolt on.

Thank god i can sleep better now.... i was worried
I didnt want your van to become a"Slide on camper in the back of the Austin ;D

Thanks for the info on Coledale. have been past there many times but never been in for a look. definitely on the list for a weekend away vanning sometime this year.
I will take Grandads wind up gramaphone and old "78s" to drown out any "Doof Doof Stereos"

Reddo - from up the coast a bit.
.

[belinda]

wwheelockvanrepair (gosh some people give their kids funny names) asked about the way the extension bar for our coupling is welded on all four sides.

The metallurgical viewpoint on this is that so far no cracks have appeared, probably because MIG welding was used. This doesn't overheat the steel too much.

Cracks are more likely to mean overloading or excessive bending, rather than overheating.

[Will and Lyn]

Hi Reddo the only time i got in trouble was towing a 38 ft van across the nullabour in 1978 with a 59 star model Ford No suspension levellers just the good old welded on tow bar we were just out of penong and the road was a bit poor in between the newer sections and we got the death wobbles up I have to say that I came close to shitting myself because all I did was take my foot of the excelorator and let he van and car slow down
I have towed Four vans across the Nullabour and a 30 ft boat I have done the trip Eighteen times by road and at least 20 times by Air when a van that size gets the death wobbles up you know you are in trouble that was the first an last time that ever happened
since then I have always adjusted my load since that time I have to say I have never had the same problem its all to do with pre planning and spreading the load to balance out the rig Hoping that you all stop and think about the combinations you are driving and towing caravaning is just the best fun however think seriously about the safety and and the serioius side of caravanning as Reddo has so rightfuuly pointed out

Rregards
Will

[Deleted]

From Belinda

Jack at Camec P/L kindly sent me their catalogue, which has pictures and notes about load levellers.

These are the sort we use, and I can heartily recommend the "backsaver"accessory - it lives up to its name.

Their website is www.caravanacc.com.au and their shop is at Rockdale (Sydney).

[Jim]

Hi there everyone..

I haven’t been on this site very long, and it’s interesting reading through all the stories and information.
But a safety issue on this thread concerns me.

So folks, although it’s easier to say nothing, I feel I should say something when there’s a safety issue involved, so I’ll risk the fate of Pheidippides at Marathon and barrel on.
The comments are regarding the extension on the drawbar on Belinda and Robert's van.

A couple of others have expressed concern about this modification and I would too.

I work with trailers, campers and caravan running gear. I'm not an engineer as such, but experience and many interesting repairs that have been through my workshop have made me very aware of the forces that act on drawbars, chassis and suspension components.

The coupling extension on the van, as it appears to be in the pictures, is very likely to crack and break at some time not too far down the track.
It won’t crack from the welding as such, but from loadings on the extension around the weak point created by the welding.

The tensions and loadings on that extension are higher than they might seem.
And it's doubtful if the lightweight shackle shown in the picture would hold the van solely on the safety chains if the van came adrift at highway speed.
That's how I see it from the pictures and information posted up.

The forces at work on couplings and drawbars when a rig is on the move are not apparent when a van is parked or when you hook it up. Even when vans are quite small and light, the forces acting, when on the move, are more than you might think.
These forces are even greater when load redistribution bars are used.
You can get some idea of the dynamic forces at work when on the move by the need for a special tool (The Back Saver Aid) to locate the spring bars when hooking up.

There are points mentioned in the ‘Car-Van’ brochure (pictured in this same thread) that tell you things are different and loads are greater, when using redistribution bars.

Firstly..
The purchaser is urged to read the brochure, (via the large overprint) so things are set up safely and securely.

Scroll down to the second page of the brochure..

Item 1..
Recommends you reinforce the gooseneck of your towbar.
This is because of the extra loading imposed by the use of spring bars.

Item 2..
Advises using a (ASA rated) towball with a 22mm thread (not an old style 16mm one).
This is also to ensure it can handle the extra load.

Further down the brochure under the heading:
“Additional equipment is required when..”

Item ‘b’.. Advises that a coupling extension should be a 75x16 mm bar.

A 75x16mm bar is a very chunky piece of steel compared to a (relatively) light gauge SHS (Square Hollow Section).
The plate is much stronger and would not be welded around the full perimeter.

I’ve prattled on a bit too much with technical type explanations, anymore might be more boring than this has been.
There are safer solutions available.

So I'll just ask some questions about the modification to get a clearer picture of it.

Regarding the extension plate on the blue drawbar:

The extension plate under the coupling on the blue drawbar is quite light plate (maybe 6mm) and is more likely to be there to avoid the ends of the drawbar tubes being crushed by the towbar gooseneck, not for the purpose of fitting load redistribution bars.
There are comparison pictures below showing the blue drawbar picture and another that shows what happens to drawbar ends when the coupling is too close. This happens when trailer is at an acute angle (only when reversing, one hopes).
It's unlikely that load redistribution bars would be fitted on ‘the blue one’, it appears to be a lightweight trailer.

Jim

[Deleted]

Hi Mark, Belinda and Jim

Firstly ... Thank You Belinda/Mark for forwarding the info from Cemac.
It is very informative and answers most of my questions.
Since i started this thread i have managed to buy a second hand two hole hitch made by Lovells as well as two spring steel equaliser bars and tow ball. The bloke i bought them from used them on his old holden while towing and old Bondwood van on what he described as some of the worst roads in Australia.
This system is the same as yours except instead of the rod brackets (J Hooks) the one i have uses chain with a ring about 1 -1/2" round. The ring slides over the equaliser bar and then the chain is tensioned up onto a hook on the side of the drawbar. The theory here is when the van starts to sway the ring bights on the bar and reduces the effect I am in the process of making rod brackets out of 2" X 1/4" flat bar to replace the chain set up.

I will strengthen the gooseneck using the recommended 20mm x 12mm section fully welded. This mod definitley makes sense and would reduce flex and metal fatigue in the goose neck. The tow ball has a 22mm thread on a solid 1-7/8 ball.

Jim
I can appreciate what your saying with regards to having seen some disasters come through your workshop. There is no substitute for experience.
The info from Cemac is very clear and easily understood . The information they have given has probably been developed over years of trial and error plus feedback from people like yourself who have had to deal with towing modifications that have been carried out by some well meaning person.

A lot of damage can be contributed to straight out overloading and abuse.


Thanks to all who have contributed.
Reddo from "The Far ( safer now) side"